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Old 08-01-2015, 03:44   #226
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
The TS 42 is 325K Euros. For comparison the Lagoon 421 is 10K less including launching.
So not really that inexpensive. All 2015 Lagoon prices here.
http://www.kiriacoulis.com/sales/lag...management.pdf
There are no comparison between the prices of a performance cat and a mass production cat. The performance cat has to be much lighter and as strong and that means a building that is much more expensive and also all sailing hardware is of much better quality and that means more expensive.

The TS 42 has structural pieces in carbon and weights less than 6T, the Lagoon 421 weights more than the double.
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Old 08-01-2015, 04:32   #227
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Tri's or Cat's?

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There are no comparison between the prices of a performance cat and a mass production cat. The performance cat has to be much lighter and as strong and that means a building that is much more expensive and also all sailing hardware is of much better quality and that means more expensive.



The TS 42 has structural pieces in carbon and weights less than 6T, the Lagoon 421 weights more than the double.

Apples and Oranges. That's fair. The statement suggests a comparison with a catamaran like a gunboat then.
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Old 08-01-2015, 07:35   #228
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
The TS 42 is 325K Euros. For comparison the Lagoon 421 is 10K less including launching.
So not really that inexpensive. All 2015 Lagoon prices here.
http://www.kiriacoulis.com/sales/lag...management.pdf
I think that price is fantastic for that type of boat. Maybe best I have seen.

I wouldn't consider the L421 as a comparable boat in any aspect other than it is white and the same LOA.

Consider that the Alpha 42 is 420K Euros, used Fusion 40's the same, 8yr old Outremer 42's 250K Euros - I don't know just what to compare this boat to, but these seem reasonable to me.

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Old 08-01-2015, 08:07   #229
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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I think that price is fantastic for that type of boat. Maybe best I have seen.
...
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That's why the press cal it the Pogo of the Cats. The comparison regarding prices/performances and also being made by a top racing shipyard has similitude with what happens with the Pogo regarding performance monohulls.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:44   #230
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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The Seawind is not this type of performance cat. Yes you are right regarding one offs, semi customs and home made boats made with pre-fabricated parts but that is not a production boat that is what the TS42 is.

I don't know of any Australian cat shipyard producing inexpensive performance cats of this size with any significant boat production but I can be wrong. What brand and shipyard is that?

It Is about production boats that I am talking about no home made boat or semi-custom boats.
Seawind in fact are doing a performance version of the 1160. It will weigh around 5-6 tonnes and have daggerboards.

But your arbitrary ruling out of home built or custom built boats is wrong IMO. Australian designs in almost every area have struggled because our domestic market is small and our labour costs are high.

I don't believe numbers sold are the only indicator of design quality. Is the Ford Focus the best designed car in the world? Is the F series truck the best designed car on the US market? Given that both those cars are available in the US, one of them can't be....
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:51   #231
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There are no comparison between the prices of a performance cat and a mass production cat. The performance cat has to be much lighter and as strong and that means a building that is much more expensive and also all sailing hardware is of much better quality and that means more expensive.

The TS 42 has structural pieces in carbon and weights less than 6T, the Lagoon 421 weights more than the double.

My boat has NO carbon, is 2 feet longer and weighed less than 5 tonnes at launch. In the right place, (not Aus, our labour costs are far too high) it could be built cheaper.

It also has the advantage of shallow draught. I couldn't live with the TS 42.

There are several Australian designed boats that have many advantages over the TS 42 IMO.
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:57   #232
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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In the right place, (not Aus, our labour costs are far too high) it could be built cheaper.
At a profit for a company, with warranty and factory support, etc? If so, that would sell like hotcakes - why isn't it being done?

Frankly, I always assumed the cost of entry into this market was North of $500 Euros.

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Old 08-01-2015, 14:05   #233
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Why isn't it being done? To be honest I don't know. It would be a big financial gamble because it's boats. It's not a rational market.
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:43   #234
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Seawind in fact are doing a performance version of the 1160. It will weigh around 5-6 tonnes and have daggerboards.

.
You raise a very interesting point. I can never work out what the various manufacturers include in their displacement figures.
The only real test is to pick one up on a load cell.
Not always practical.

A Seawind 1160 weighed for OMR (available with a google search) came in at almost 9 tons. One assumes that didn't include all the cruising stuff, food water toys etc. The specifications claim around 7 tons. This would have to be a 10 ton plus boat at the start of a cruise. They do appear to sit very low when loaded.
What do you think? What does the stated displacement include?
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:59   #235
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

All of Seawind's boats are lighter these days, since they now resin infuse them. The 1160 sports version will have a more simple interior, outboard motors etc, to make it lighter still.
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Old 08-01-2015, 15:32   #236
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
My boat has NO carbon, is 2 feet longer and weighed less than 5 tonnes at launch. In the right place, (not Aus, our labour costs are far too high) it could be built cheaper.

It also has the advantage of shallow draught. I couldn't live with the TS 42.

There are several Australian designed boats that have many advantages over the TS 42 IMO.
Labor cost in Australia is higher than in France?

Today the best NA play all around the planet, that's a global market. There are Argentinians, Americans and Australians designing European boats. Europe has the biggest sail market and the bigger boat manufacturers and the brands get the best designers to have a commercial advantage. If the Australians were better than the ones that design production cats, they would be designing at least some production ones.

As you probably know French dominate the racing offshore multihull scene. The fastest multihull on your part of the world is an old ORMA class trimaran that would be an obsolete one here. Racing design is fundamental to improve cruising performance design and some of the ones involved in the racing design are the same that design cruising cats.
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Old 08-01-2015, 15:55   #237
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
You raise a very interesting point. I can never work out what the various manufacturers include in their displacement figures.
The only real test is to pick one up on a load cell.
Not always practical.

A Seawind 1160 weighed for OMR (available with a google search) came in at almost 9 tons. One assumes that didn't include all the cruising stuff, food water toys etc. The specifications claim around 7 tons. This would have to be a 10 ton plus boat at the start of a cruise. They do appear to sit very low when loaded.
What do you think? What does the stated displacement include?
Seawind had their laminates redesigned by a top NZ laminate designing company (world class it not best in world) as well as resin infusion to lighten their designs.

Not saying they would compete with the TS 42 but 5 ton is readily achieavable with a 40ft cat by Australian designers.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:16   #238
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

A couple of pages back we were discussing high performance tris and I mentioned the Contour 34. Here it is. Not folding but it is demountable for long term storage.
1998 Contour 34' Sailing Trimaran
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:38   #239
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

Actually, they do fold, kind of like dragonfly's


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Old 11-01-2015, 10:36   #240
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Re: Tri's or Cat's?

I learn something new every day. Here's a folding pic.
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