Trimaran Weekenders - why the high prices?

[alansmith]

Hi Brown, specifically ... three hulls are always more expensive to make than two... two hulls are more expensive to make than one. Lots of high tech engineering for folding Boats are very well engineered/ designed by Ian Farrier. He had a nasty divorce with Corsair many years ago. Corsair moved to Vietnam There is no love between the two entities

The beauty is speed and ease of trailering it. I have lots of experience on F27 and F31. You can haul those puppies around at 65 mph. Want to cruise Bahamas for a couple of weeks? Ontario? Rivers? Big blow coming... back on the trailer. Rinse her off and wax her once a year. No divers scrubbing her... no mooring fees... no corrosion issues or sun damage when she is not being used. Launch her in less than hour. Spartan and wicked fun. f27 are more than enough boat for coastal and weekend. They are wet boats in choppy seas and moderate wind.

Fabulous boats that Ian hit a home run with. Take a look at Multihulldirect.com out of Subic Bay, P.I. They make Ian's Farrier's now. Crazy expensive. But ooh la la.

[arthur.watson.1]

Brownoarsman,

Sorry, can't help it, my Contour 34 might work for you. She is for sale in Galesville, less than 25 miles from you. A great cruising tri for the Chesapeake for day sails, long weekends -- or longer! You can find her on sailboatlistings.com.

Best,

Art Watson

[brownoarsman]

Thanks, Arthur! I'm afraid it's too much boat for me at present as I try to simplify my life a bit, but a good friend raced one for years before moving to an FP cat, and had nothing but great things to say about the Contour. I hope you find a buyer, she looks like a lovely boat.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

Two posted 2017 for sale on Sailboats for sale from Sailing Texas, buy or sell your sailboat, free sailboat ads. one in Cal. one in Port Townsend

Thanks! I see the one in Moss Landing, CA now. I've been reading up on them a bit, and while there seem to be some drawbacks vs. a more modern, purpose-built design, those price points are a great way to test the waters! I'm not buying for a few months yet, so I set up a google alert, and I'm hoping one will pop up in my neck of the woods! Thanks again to you and jdazey for pointing those out to me!

[Cavalier MK2]

Maybe you should go smaller and look at a Windrider and tent. Less work so more use..... Maybe charter something for those other occasions?

[lonesoldier0408]

👍 But I enjoy my WindRider 16 and the use of a WindRider 17.

[Scaramanga F25]

There are 3 tremolinos for sale on: www.sailboatlistings.com
6K to 10K$

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Maybe you should go smaller and look at a Windrider and tent. Less work so more use..... Maybe charter something for those other occasions?

Yup - that's certainly one of the options I'm considering: a much cheaper beach cat or tri, and a powerboat with a cabin for high-speed cruising, all for less money than a new tri-weekender!

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

There are 3 tremolinos for sale on: www.sailboatlistings.com
6K to 10K$

I'm only seeing these two, at least among ones with relatively recent postings (2016 or 2017)

Florida for $8k

Colorado for $6k

[brownoarsman]

Hi everyone - thanks for the continued tips and suggestions!

As an update, I'm in touch with Finish Line of the Treasure Coast, a US Corsair dealer presenting at the show, and am already very impressed with the level of support/'approachability' of Finish Line. I hadn't realised how new the 760 was, apparently the show model is on its way in a container (and is one of the first, if not the first, in the US)!

Farrier, however, seems to have shut down whatever US relationship they used to have. They appear to be going for a direct-sales model from New Zealand with the F22, supplemented by US owners acting as unofficial representatives to give sample sails and get cut in for a percentage of the sale if the person ends up buying eventually. I'm not sure whether an expensive trimaran is plug-and-play or buzzworthy enough for that model, but US owners seem to have no trouble offloading from a container and assembling themselves so far. Not sure if this is a reaction to the mixed history with Corsair, a desire for more end-to-end control, or just a way to keep the price down.

[brownoarsman]

I thought I'd update with some notes from the Boat Show. Both the Corsair and Dragonfly presenters were great, and the Corsair guys spent an hour and a half with me one-on-one answering my questions and swapping sailing stories - can't say enough good things about Steve Marsh and Finish Line OTC.

On the primary subject of this thread, trimaran boat costs, two explanations from the dealers:
1) the cost of constructing these is more expensive vs. other new boats on the market. In Corsair's case: very high quality materials (foam, resin, kevlar, etc.) and vacuum bag construction. With Dragonfly: similarly high-quality materials and hand-laid fiberglass for the hull and epoxy in other places (rudder, centerboard, etc.). This also supports high prices on the used markets - a 20 year old Beneteau might be feeling a little tired, but a 20 year old Corsair should be in a condition closer to 'new'.
2) pull vs. push inventory model. This is more about supply. While the big cat/mono dealers will build a baseline volume each year and require dealers to buy $XX mm of inventory, the small trimaran builders only build boats when end-customers make deposits. This limits supply on the used market and also, presumably though unmentioned, means you can't strike deals on unsold new inventory sitting at a dealer.

On the Dragonfly 25 vs. the Corsair 760, my original cost numbers were off. With the drop in the Euro, the boats are close enough to the same price that the difference should not be the deciding factor. The big differences between the two strike me as design-based: daggerboard on the 760 vs. centerboard and kickup rudder on the DF25, so the DF25 is certainly a better boat if you hit the bottom a lot. I prefer the swingwing on the DF 25 to the vertically folding amas on the 760, but the swingwing necessitates waterstays on a 5-year replacement schedule, so it's not without drawbacks. Some Corsair owners will bottom paint ellipses on the amas if they leave them folded in the water, which looks weird, but whatever. The DF25 is marginally heavier (100kg) than the 760. I've got sails planned on both which will probably determine choice more than anything else ...

Regarding new vs. used boats, at least on the Corsair line, the 760 is little different than the 750 mk II dash. The 750 mkII introduced higher buoyancy amas to help if you stuff the boat, and the 760 turned them into reverse bow wave piercers and replaced some mouse fur in the interior with two-part polyurethane. So, if looking for a lower price, the 750 mk II dash is a good option, it's also a little lighter than the 760.

Versus models before the 750 mkII, the increased buoyancy amas on the 750/760 help if you stuff it. So, if you're going to sale conservatively, fine to buy something older, but if you're going to push it, go for something newer. With the F27/28 models, the aft berth is probably the biggest thing (unless you buy a boat from before ~1997 which then likely has a fixed vs rotating mast and may have a centerboard). The 760 took 500 pounds of weight out of the F27 while only sacrificing about 200 lbs in payload due to the higher buoyancy amas, so the 750/760 are probably more comparable to the F27/28 than to the F24 from a weekender perspective, but are in between the two a bit. There is definitely a gap right now in the Corsair lineup between the 760 and the 970, but oh well. In terms of performance options, carbon masts and racing sails will help in a race, but will likely be little noticeable in daysailing, at least in the dealer's opinion, and incremental benefits of the performance options can be overcome with good vs average sailing skills.

Hope that helps anyone else who may be looking at this decision or is just curious! I'm not sold on anything yet and am still looking at the other models people suggested, but like to do the research

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

SNIP

Farrier, however, seems to have shut down whatever US relationship they used to have.

This is a real sore point with Ian and Corsair. Without going into too much detail it is an East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet situation.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

SNIP


On the Dragonfly 25 vs. the Corsair 760,

I have helped take apart and put together both a C24 and a C31. I have to say I was impressed with how easy it was to raise and lower the mast on both boats. When I was looking at fboats I saw a C31 that was damaged due to the mast or boom being dropped on the hatch cover of the companion way, something to think about.

One of the C24's biggest attractions for me was the ability to quickly get it from the trailer to the water and reverse the process. Keep in mind it is usually more of a job to take it apart because you have to secure the standing rigging so traveling at 60mph over possible bumpy roads will not shake it lose.

I also went to an fboat race and saw other owners getting their boats off and on trailers. There are more Corsairs which means more Corsair owners you can get advice from.

I was always interested in Dragonflys as well but never was able to see one in person. I will be interested in your impression, especially if you get to see one taken apart or put together and go on and off a trailer.

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by tomfl

This is a real sore point with Ian and Corsair. Without going into too much detail it is an East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet situation.

Yes - this schism is, I think, well-known. I was thinking more of Farrier Marine, INC (USA) which may just be a deadbox or forwarding box for US business. I think there used to be further US details on Farrier's website, but my recollection is dim and I couldn't find it just now. Somewhat immaterial to my search, maybe, as I believe the F-22 backlog is still 2 to 3 years, and Farrier isn't taking new deposits now ...

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by tomfl

[SNIP]
When I was looking at fboats I saw a C31 that was damaged due to the mast or boom being dropped on the hatch cover of the companion way, something to think about.

[SNIP]
I was always interested in Dragonflys as well but never was able to see one in person. I will be interested in your impression, especially if you get to see one taken apart or put together and go on and off a trailer.

Regarding the C31 - definitely. I've heard a few stories of sleeved C31 masts either due to cross wind or just the difficulties of a rotating mast when being raised. Since the 31 has a heavier mast vs the smaller Fboats, even more of an issue. Talked to a few F/C-boat owners last night, and their stance on raising the mast was 24 - no problem, 27 - can sometimes be a bit iffy, 31 - really want two people. Coincidentally, the earlier F-27s had fixed masts, which the owners report are easier to raise. Talked to one such owner last night, and he didn't feel he was losing out too much without a rotating mast, and still easily hits 15 + knots. I'm not convinced the differences in rotating vs. fixed are of huge importance on the smaller F-boats as the mast sections are smaller and so less obstructive, and versus a Nacra or similar beach cat with a rotating mast, presumably the trimaran is gaining a little windward ability already due to being a tri vs. a cat. All of which means I may be able to save some $$s by buying an earlier F-27 without feeling like I'm missing out

On the Dragonfly ease of trailering - at past shows and with different representatives (so not Rich) - the Dragonfly reps were a little caustic about whether Tony Smith lifted some of their design ideas on the Telstar 28 swingwings. I found the Telstar super easy to trailer and control under motor with the amas folded in - and while the mast raising was a little shaky and Rube Goldberg-like, it worked! I would hope the DF25 is similar if the Telstar shares some design concepts. I'll ask the new owner if I, hopefully, get a sail in with him, and report back. As you mention, Dragonflies are pretty rare - I think their production rate is 50 boats/year, so they are hard to find. Thanks for your continued advice and thoughts!