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Old 14-07-2012, 19:50   #1276
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Roy your ship looks fantastic with all your hard work and new ideas. Well DONE!
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Old 14-07-2012, 20:05   #1277
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Here is my vessel 37ft. Best thing i ever bought in the Southisland of New Zealand and sailed her up to Waiheke island.
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Old 15-07-2012, 06:18   #1278
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Ross-

I believe the wiggler was used mainly on boats that also used the Morse single push pull cable. The push pull gear is really too light for these boats and working in a fizz boat shop you replace them all the time.

When I was looking at buying SR 40 Maxolar, a few years ago, I was quite concerned by the wiggler setup and push pull cable on this boat. Though they would not give any specs on load or tensile strength, Teleflex told me not to use the push pull cable on any boat over 34' and only with the Big"T" gearbox which Maxolar did not have.

On there last sail, the Maxolar owners encountered rough conditions in the gulf stream and told me they had difficulty maintaining a course within 90 degrees of desired. Surely an issue related to the steering play and not the boats natural handling.

The wire quadrant/ no wiggler as shown in the SR 34 plans is the preferred Searunner steering.
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Old 15-07-2012, 10:06   #1279
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Rossad, thank you. I still have the standard wiggler,though I haven't used it, and it remains with its securing bolt in place. Some day, when I go for the Scanmar Autohelm unit, I will probably have it set up to pull the wiggler from the sterncastle. I like the ability to engage the steering back by simply spinning the helm. My Raymarine autopilot linear drive hooks to the portion of the wiggler that is attached to the tiller cables. I shifted to an Edson system after my Morse bit the dust. I use synthetic line, 1/4", with small turnbuckles at the rudder fitting, and oversize needle bearing sheaves to lead the cables to the base of the pedestal. It's all disconnected, at the moment, because of my painting, but I'll send photos when it's back together.
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Old 15-07-2012, 15:56   #1280
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Thanks. I still have the morse system of which has worked well but wonder how it may finally stop working. Do they slowly get worse or simply break and malfunction. My secondary steering if breakage is running a rope outside from the rudder to an arma block to a winch in the cockpit. Havnt tried the workings as yet I should. Important stuff . Always improvements can be made it s which way to go. It would seem the best steering method is cable for simplicity and fixability of which another system to the wiggler would then be used. Detailed pics would be of much interest . Cheers for your help.
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Old 15-07-2012, 18:02   #1281
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mine broke after about 25 years. It was the steel strands of the sheath, I recall, that went, at the ball joint area. I searched like hell for a similar single cable system, with no luck. I had a pedestal that had been built specifically for the Morse system, back in the early 70's, but the company was long out of business. I was screwed. Finally, I bit the bullet and bought an Edson pedestal, with a new throttle/gear shift single control. It used sheaves and cables, which worked well with my layout. My pedestal is located to starboard of the centerboard trunk, allowing me to sit on the starboard side and have crew pass easily on the portside of the cockpit sole. The wheel is a 30" diameter unit. The cables pass from the overhead of the starboard cockpit alleyway, then alongside the starboard hull, just below the sheerline, passing below the starboard side aft cabin berth, under the galley stove counter (my Force 10 stove sits entirely above the counter, being the only eye-level Force 10 in the world), then along the sterncastle bench seat (about small of the back level), then to the stern, one cable crossing to the starboard side then returning to the tiller arm. I don't use a quadrant.

The single cable is a great unit, but I couldn't find one that worked for the forty. I'm not unhappy (other than the cost) with the Edson, and I love the single lever engine controls. I'm sorry, I don't have a good pics of the new pedestal. I'll have to work on that. Oops! Found one of an old friend at the helm. And another, when I was installing the pedestal and making some additional lockers at the helm seat.
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Old 16-07-2012, 06:36   #1282
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2 View Post
I precoat the parts before instalation unless there is a reason to wait. The uncoated scraps that are to small to use get used as firewood rather than rot resistant land fill. I try to minimize the non renewables such as epoxy. A flat finish is great for a painted area but if left natural having some grain texture show can look good. Quick and dirty building shouldn't be used on boats but then the tragedy of taking 8 years of 70hour weeks to complete a economy boat could be an indication of lack of aptitude as well. Economy isn't just in the materials but also in time. Overly fussy methodology might scare off those new to building and keep some great projects from happening.

It only makes sense to "get out there cruising as fast as possible", if that is why one is building the boat in the first place. Building a boat is not really a rational thing you know... With my last (previous to Delphys) project, getting back "out there" was quite secondary! Many people build boats for a variety of reasons, OTHER than how fast they can get out there. The reasons for how long my SC 28 took to build are in my book (that has yet to be published), but... my previous boat had JUST been run down and totaled, (with no compensation), and this was immediately followed by my dad being murdered back in SC. Then ALL of my new boatbuilding "kitty" was stolen, which led to years of financial struggles. Both financially, emotionally, and "energy for it" wise, I was recovering... I was enjoying "the process". That project's length was "perfect", in many ways. My boatbuilding techniques, however, are as fast as any I've heard of, at a given level of quality. Those super light weight amas, for example... were complete within a few months of starting! I could have knocked out the rest as well, if I'd wanted too.

I have made very few posts describing OVERLY fussy techniques. I have done them, but don't often share that part. What I have shared, is levels of work and techniques, that 40 years of doing this has taught me, were "just right"... ways that 10 hours spent now, doing this, will save you 100 hours later, because of that. There is an undeniable "cause and effect relationship in life"!

My philosophy, as I've stated, is to have as successful a "cruising experience" as possible, IF that's what one wants, and pay the price "up front"... like, where I had a 4 acre country boatyard in a wonderful / bucolic, "almost free" place to live. The price has to be payed! Others choose to pay it piecemeal, all along the way... by either: giving up cruising in a shorter length of time than I have, or seldom actually leaving the country, starting over repeatedly when the boat wears out, doing more maintenance along the way "in battlefield conditions", and ultimately... selling the boat at a fraction of the cost, because there is almost NO market for ugly, high maintenance, workboat multihulls.

There IS a market for real "WORKBOATS" (like tugs & shrimpers)... with a workboat finish, requiring regular maintenance, done by teams of hired workers...

For multihulls, however, it is only possible to sell such a craft at a small fraction of the costs of the exact same model with WEST system total encapsulation, LP paints, a fair hull, and low maintenance / high longevity built in, from one end to the other.

That's not to say that there is no place for one or the other, just BOTH types pay a price. Anyone who thinks that they have it figured out where they don't pay "the price", EITHER up front OR along the way, is irrational and deluding themselves.

I have friends who had a series of "real junkers", and worked on them constantly while ALSO cruising all over. Until his ama fell off at sea, he had as much fun as me too... Some court disaster, calling it adventure!

There is no ONE way to do things, and I have always qualified my posts on how to achieve this or that, with "IF low maintenance and longevity are top priorities", THEN this is what works for me.

For many, their cruising experience priorities are different, so it is better for them to knock it out, and pay the price later. IF, however, they think that there is no penalty in life for sloppy, half assed ways of getting by, then IMO... they're deluding themselves.

M.
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Old 16-07-2012, 06:44   #1283
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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I wish I had done the same. I threw my sheets of ply on some weeds in the vacant lot, rollered epoxy on, added white pigmented layers for the underside, then cut out my panels. It was a waste of materials, but I'm the only Searunner with dog paw prints on the underside of my float deck. Also, two-part epoxy paint doesn't hold up forever if it gets regular exposure to sunlight. It begins to change color and chalks. I know that from using it in my head/shower with the hatch open. But it makes a great base coat for the LPU which followed it several years later.
VERY good point Roy. Even 2 part epoxies are vulnerable to UVs, and if in direct sunlight, covering with LP is better. At least the epoxies "chalk" rather than "peel"!

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Old 16-07-2012, 07:03   #1284
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Ross-

I believe the wiggler was used mainly on boats that also used the Morse single push pull cable. The push pull gear is really too light for these boats and working in a fizz boat shop you replace them all the time.

When I was looking at buying SR 40 Maxolar, a few years ago, I was quite concerned by the wiggler setup and push pull cable on this boat. Though they would not give any specs on load or tensile strength, Teleflex told me not to use the push pull cable on any boat over 34' and only with the Big"T" gearbox which Maxolar did not have.

On there last sail, the Maxolar owners encountered rough conditions in the gulf stream and told me they had difficulty maintaining a course within 90 degrees of desired. Surely an issue related to the steering play and not the boats natural handling.

The wire quadrant/ no wiggler as shown in the SR 34 plans is the preferred Searunner steering.

Well put Jeff!

The old Morse cables were under strength, and too much friction. The 34s pull pull cables are best!

The wiggler, btw, enables the use of the SR windvane gear, which is very hard to get just right. I know many folks have, and Mark Hassle was the world's best, but I personally never met a Searunner with a windvane that worked... "well". (Dozens).

I choose to eliminate the trim tab, and rely on an electric wheel autopilot, (powered by solar). For LONG range "round the world types"... If one already HAS the trim tab, you can attach a SMALL tiller unit in the back, to the trim tab, rather than rudder linkage. (Disengageing the wiggler would help here). This way you use a fraction of the amps, and being so cheep, can carry spares!

With our boats skeg rudder, the load is light, the boat hunts very little, and the same small wheel unit has taken us "reliably" for tens of thousands of miles, even in gales and surfing huge waves. It also works in light air, down wind, and while motoring. The windvane falls short here!

For those who really want a windvane, however... I'd get a more modern type...
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Old 16-07-2012, 07:30   #1285
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Here is my vessel 37ft. Best thing i ever bought in the Southisland of New Zealand and sailed her up to Waiheke island.
Rossad,
BEAUTIFUL boat! That is a great cockpit enclosure. One of the best...

The thing about the single Morse cable unit is... that you can't see the cable or its condition. It could be worn out, rusty, or when the next big stress hits, about to go. It also has more friction. The highest loads are when going backwards! (Front hinged rudders) If you drag anchor, or are laying to a parachute off of the bow, and slip backwards, while the 500' rode stretches 20%, the loads on the steering & rudder become HUGE! With ours, almost more than I can hold! If I ever really need the parachute, I plan to lash the tiller arm amidships (from down below), to take the load off of the wheel, gear, pulleys, & cables.

LESS FRICTION: With our pull pull cables, when hauled out, the wind alone on the rudder, (in 25 + knots), can actually spin the wheel from C to hard over! This one finger control is easier on human pilots, and auto pilots, as well as makes it easier getting sail balance all sussed out.

Like Roy, I also love the single lever throttle / transmission control. While my pedestal is a composite box, the "works" is an EDSON power boat gear and wheel shaft, that was designed for inside dash or bulkhead mounting.

M.
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Old 16-07-2012, 08:33   #1286
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Advice from the past:

`What?' cried the Rat, open-mouthed: `Never been in a--you never--well I--what have you been doing, then?'

`Is it so nice as all that?' asked the Mole shyly, though he was quite prepared to believe it as he leant back in his seat and surveyed the cushions, the oars, the rowlocks, and all the fascinating fittings, and felt the boat sway lightly under him.

`Nice? It's the ONLY thing,' said the Water Rat solemnly, as he leant forward for his stroke. `Believe me, my young friend, there is NOTHING--absolute nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing,' he went on dreamily: `messing--about--in--boats; messing----'

`Look ahead, Rat!' cried the Mole suddenly.

It was too late. The boat struck the bank full tilt. The dreamer, the joyous oarsman, lay on his back at the bottom of the boat, his heels in the air.

`--about in boats--or WITH boats,' the Rat went on composedly, picking himself up with a pleasant laugh. `In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not. Look here! If you've really nothing else on hand this morning, supposing we drop down the river together, and have a long day of it?'

The Mole waggled his toes from sheer happiness, spread his chest with a sigh of full contentment, and leaned back blissfully into the soft cushions. `WHAT a day I'm having!' he said. `Let us start at once!'
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Old 16-07-2012, 08:57   #1287
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

AMEN to that!
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Old 16-07-2012, 10:54   #1288
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Now Mark, I'm going to rib you a bit here..."Ugly, high maintenance workboat multihulls'......It would appear you confuse how you would like things to be versus what they are. A well coated plain finish less than glass smooth is just as long lasting as more yachty approaches. The inside of a bin doesn't need to be as smooth as exposed areas etc.....and latex lasts very well indeed. These notions are contrary to conventional market value but have real cruising value. If you are building your boat for the next owner the gloss and glitter might be worthwhile but won't bring a return equal to the time taken to achieve them.....

Schedules are a pain. My situation requires getting chunks of work done then working on details until the next chunk can be done and it is a pain versus being able to get it done all at once. So you do have to pay the piper, either up front or in installments. Our work is done for safety-strength-longevity-ease of future maintenance-and finally cosmetics. By building for my needs I can make the boat suit me because I don't want to sell. I'm currently admiring the daggerboard trunk and sad because I won't be able to haul in a yard to extend the slot till next year when the lousy keel fairing goes under the saw. That lets me make a board this winter, in the meantime I can hold rituals at the base of the obelisk that has apparated in the Nicol.......and hide from visitors because the trim won't be on till fall.
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Old 16-07-2012, 13:33   #1289
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark, Thanks for all of the time that you take to help others on this forum. I know I have learned so much not just about Searunners but about the way of life that you represent so well. Your contributions have been invaluable and your willingness to discuss the mistakes you have made in the past will help many to avoid making them also. Others can only hope to emulate the quality of work that you do. I hope you publish your book soon and I just ordered "Multihull Cruising in the Caribbean".
Can you tell us more about your engine/aquadrive installation? Would it be a difficult installation on a Searunner that never had an inboard? What engine did you install?
Thanks,
Kevin

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten" - Benjamin Franklin.
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Old 16-07-2012, 16:00   #1290
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Mark, Thanks for all of the time that you take to help others on this forum. I know I have learned so much not just about Searunners but about the way of life that you represent so well. Your contributions have been invaluable and your willingness to discuss the mistakes you have made in the past will help many to avoid making them also. Others can only hope to emulate the quality of work that you do. I hope you publish your book soon and I just ordered "Multihull Cruising in the Caribbean".
Can you tell us more about your engine/aquadrive installation? Would it be a difficult installation on a Searunner that never had an inboard? What engine did you install?
Thanks,
Kevin

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten" - Benjamin Franklin.

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the kind words...

The engine installation with an Aqua Drive, (a double "U" joint with telescoping shaft & thrust bearing), is one of the best experiments on the boat, although I give concept credit for our mid cabin engine location to John Marples, who suggested both. Also... I owe thanks to Kern Hendricks of Systems Three resins, who checked out my drawings before I started. As far as I know, he was the first to put the engine here, right under the aft companionway steps.

The engine is a Yanmar 2-GM 20-F. (18 hp) Now, I'd get the newer version which has a few more HP, and is 3, rather than 2 cylinder.

The old "port side of CB trunk location" has worked fine for lots of folks, and if the drive train is already in, I'd stick with it, BUT... If your boat has no engine yet, it is a perfect candidate for the install like on Delphys.

You put the engine almost in the middle but fwd end of the aft cabin floor, and about 1.5" to port of center. This allows a straight back shaft run, to just clear the skeg for installation and removal. The engine mounts to the Aqua Drive CV joint, which is in turn mounted to the same engine beds. It allows total shaft misalignment to the engine, and the shaft only rotates, rather than "shake rattle n roll" with the engine. The CV joint's thrust bearing means that the forward and reverse thrust (as well as snagging a crab pot), pushes or pulls only on the Aqua Drive and engine beds. It puts NO thrust on the engine itself, the transmission bearings, or the engine's rubber feet.

The stationary shaft, that now ONLY rotates, makes a perfect match up with a PSS dripless shaft seal, which prefer a shaft that is not wobbling around like the engine.

The cost of the Aqua Drive has been made up for many times over, by engine parts that I didn't have to replace, and disasters averted that I didn't have to pay my way out of.

It has been several thousand engine hours now, over almost 17 years, and I have never re-aligned anything. I have changed the cutlass bearings only once, and only replaced a few minor engine parts. The engine has NEVER failed me, or left me stranded when I needed it.

With the mid cabin installation, one builds a box, to replace the lower companionway step. The floor space lost can be minimized with beveled corners, and if you can live with just 6' head room, raising the floor a few inches, so that only the cylinders, and SS "down turn" style exhaust, are in the box. I loose about a square foot of floor space more than I would have without the box, since the standard companionway ladder also eats up floor space. Rather than be a pain, the box allows one to come and go quicker, and reach the far back portions of those deep counters and shelves. I love it!

If you like it quiet, extend the floor to the walls, and glue them in. Then make a drop in hatch over the aft half. When the box & hatch are removed... (30 seconds), you have TOTAL access to everything!

The box, hatch, and floor ceilings are insulated with sound deadening foam, and must be ventilated with "in and out" elephants trunk hoses, that go to clam shell vents on the cabin sides.

I also coated in the engine compartment "bilge" WELL, with white pigmented epoxy, for a totally sealed surface. This installation makes it quiet, as well as easy to maintain and keep the engine pristine. This cleanliness, including the fuel, (which has a separate polishing system), will go a long way towards a long, reliable, hassle free engine life. Like the rest of the boat, I keep a dusty dry bilge.

I recommend it highly, if you like the above features. It is all more work to install originally, but less work to own, and over the long haul, probably cheaper too!

Regards,
M.
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