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Old 06-05-2012, 09:42   #1171
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Cheers Bob and good luck with your project. A deferred sentence from Marples is encouraging. If he drew out a plan sheet he could sell it to other owners.....
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Old 06-05-2012, 09:43   #1172
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharleyAnna View Post
Mark, your point is well taken regarding cost of trailering the boat, vs. dry storage. A nice trailer to store the boat with the ability to occasionally/rarely haul to new cruising grounds wouIld be ideal. I like TriSailor's trailer idea.
Wow you've had a rough few months. What happened to you, is exactly what I'm wanting to avoid.
I love our little 31', and find it interesting that so many have made the crossing. I think research is needed to determine the best method of sealing the ama bolts into the bulkhead for safe sea travel, but yet something that eventually can be removed for dismounting (and also some way to close up the gap to prevent leaking).
We have been using alot of LifeSeal in the current refit of our 'learning boat', a Catalina 25. I wonder if something like that would work.
Anna,
Your beam of just under 19' is the magic number. YOU can fit your boat into most "regular" sized yards, with their "regular" sized travel lifts. This gives you 10X more hauling out options than us, and you have a much better chance of finding a nice "hole in the wall" little boat yard that is DIY, will give you some working space... AND good prices. The older I get, the more I like smaller boats! (Of coarse I am now in the boat yard phase).

As far as minimizing problems at the connectives, first off... Seal the hell out of the bolt holes in the boat, with multiple "coat & sanding steps" (with epoxy). You start by drilling the boat's bolt holes a bit large, and can put on 5 coats a day, sand the next, and repeat, for 3 days. Then, after this 3 days, ALL of them are TOTALLY sealed, and MUCH stronger! Obviously, don't coat over ANY left over caulk / paint, etc.

If the hole saw cut is just right, and you need to "oversize" the hole, JUST a bit, to make room for epoxy, just wrap the hole saw, "in the correct direction" and a slight overlap, with "peel n stick" 80 grit sandpaper. Now, with the drill running, slowly work it through the hole in the wood, for a new hole just 1/16" or so larger. It may take several attempts, with several pieces of sandpaper...

I like Boat Life's "Life Caulk", as it is fairly removable, resilient, and leaves no slick residue, (as silicones do), that can effect future bonds with your LP paint. (These residues can be sanded away, but it is hard to get 100% off).

No caulk alone takes the place of a PERFECT fit and "0" movement. To get a perfect fit, you need 100% contact between the base plates and the hull...

IF they have a rough "hit & miss" contact, and it isn't say, 90%... You can bolt together the X arms, but bedded in Silica & Hi D thickened epoxy, rather than caulk! First prep the hull pad area & remove ALL paint here, (This spot ONLY). Then cover the base plate's mating surface with (3Ms 471 blue/purple vinyl tape), as a NON stick barrier. Bolt it all up with the dummy bolts sprayed with 5 coats of McLube, or the like, so that this epoxy bog sticks ONLY to the boat pad area, but NOT the X arm's pad OR the bolts themselves. (Be sure to use bolts that have thread only on the inside of the boat, where it's needed). Next, after it sets, remove the X arms, and remove any tape or runs onto areas where it shouldn't be.

Now you have 100% contact, and need only a 1/16" thick film of caulk on the base plates, a 1/8" ring around where the bolt goes into the hull, and under the head. You want the metal to metal areas sealed, to avoid crevice corrosion, and under the connective's base plate, to seal the hole in the boats entry, but NOT down the entire bolt going into that long epoxy coated hole in the boat. (This makes it really hard to get out, later). On future re-assemblies, pick off/scrape off, the old caulk, as best you can.

This is a great starting point. Next, make sure that all of the other pieces that hold this boat rigid, are a really good fit, without forcing it very much to get a line up, and do the epoxy bedding (then remove) technique, that I just described, IF NECESSARY, to get at least 95% contact.

Now that you have a really good fit, with THIN caulk lines and it's "rigid", your likelihood of leaks later is minimized, as is the difficulty of DIS-assembly later, from too much caulk in the holes on the boat.

Most folks don't go to this trouble, but they only plan to put her together ONCE! For YOUR needs, where dis-assembly & occasional trailering is actually planned, this hassle is time well spent. It might only add $50 and 8 or 10 days to your multi year project!

Btw. There aren't many 31' demountable / trailerable boats that I'd have 100% confidence in, as they all seem to "loose something" for this feature, (in direct proportion it seems, to how easily and quickly they are set up for sailing).

The truly "trailerable" types, like Farriers, are neither designed for, nor intended for real "cruising". "CRUISING" entails TOTALLY different features, like ruggedness, livability, ample ventilation, ample storage, bow rollers, a protected rudder, & stantions, to name a few. Neither are MOST trailerable's appropriate for cruising's many inevitable brushes with truly extreme conditions, over years of hard cruising. Farriers & the like are fun to sail, racer/weekenders only, that are lightly built, and VERY expensive. They are wonderful toys, NOT cruising boats..

The SR 31, on the other hand, properly built & assembled, doesn't loose anything at all for its demountability, except perhaps a bit of aesthetics, which is a highly subjective call. They're REAL cruisers, & real sea boats!

Hope this helps,

M.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:04   #1173
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Very well informed Mark.....
These Searunners could have a longer arma i reckon... what do you think?
I like my 37 it seems to be just right in a blow, though going to windward i would like to have seen another metre added to the length of the arma.

I personally don't like the thought of de-mountable trimarans for offshore. Not in heavy seas and to find out if its OK would be bit worrying.......
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Old 06-05-2012, 15:39   #1174
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by trisailer View Post
She still would be wide on the trailer at 11 feet.
The main saving factor would be, no crane (or helpers) needed to mount the akas and raise the mast.
The akas would start raising as the boat is backed into the water, so main hull could only tip over a small amount.
Also the akas would support the main hull from tipping on the trailer, no cribbing needed except under the minnie keel.
So that clears the boat to float off the trailer, with no obstacles in the way.
All told I fell 3-4 hours is a do able time to setup.
Was real fun finding a boat ramp that not only wide enough, but also deep water fairly quick, but I found one.
Now to see if my truck has enough power to pull her out of the water.
Thanks for all the good feedback and advice.
Bob

Good luck with it Bob. If you and John have discussed it at length and he neither condemns nor endorses it, but you know the "issues" involved, that is certainly a good start. You can be the Guinea pig...

About your set up time, however... IMO, IF the boat is all tricked out for "cruising", VS a very basic daysailor, and you have the cutter rig and all, you will find that once assembled & launched... rigging & tuning the mast, rigging up the stantions, installing the boom, hanking/bolt roping on the 3 sails, bolting up the for n aft planks, as well as side walking planks, rigging the side & forward nets, rigging the dinghy roller & hinged boarding ladder, putting the primary anchor on its roller, loading the dink, etc... You're talking days, not hours.

I could be wrong, perhaps as a stripped out daysailor, but it will not be ready for "cruising" in a matter of hours. That takes weeks of careful prep on any boat.

M.
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Old 06-05-2012, 16:50   #1175
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Very well informed Mark.....
These Searunners could have a longer arma i reckon... what do you think?
I like my 37 it seems to be just right in a blow, though going to windward i would like to have seen another metre added to the length of the arma.

I personally don't like the thought of de-mountable trimarans for offshore. Not in heavy seas and to find out if its OK would be bit worrying.......

Having followed the modern multihull movement since "back in the day", the thinking about amas changed over time, in many ways. I read hundreds of books, and many thousands of boat building trade publications, to keep "juiced" on my projects, but the best source of information BY FAR, was Multihulls Magazine. The articles were by ALL of us, designers, boatbuilders, and cruisers. Up until a few years ago, I had the entire 30+ year collection, ever since Vol#1. (Lost a bunch of them in Hurricane Ivan in '04 though).

They, (Gougeons among others), tried low buoyancy amas for a while, thinking that they could just slice THROUGH the waves, and in racing, it worked, but these lost favor due to a higher risk of capsize.

Then ama buoyancy went up and up, depending on whether it was a cruiser, or a racer, with a huge rig to counteract. My boat is 100%, but a racer might be 150% or higher!

With Searunners, Jim & John really tweeked the proportions, to get them just right on the 34. (less wing area, a vent hole in it, deeper/narrower hulls, more wing clearance, smaller mini keel, sealed wing voids, stronger scantlings, etc)

I did a major refit, sailed on, and later cruised a SR 37, hull #1 (La Una), back in the 70s. Being a "hot rodder", I felt that it pounded too much. (We pushed her hard)... They later upped the wing clearance a bit.

In answer... I don't really know if "longer" would've been the way to go, VS just more buoyancy in the amas, and more wing clearance. Longer would possibly help the hobbyhorsing a bit, but not like on a racer, where the weight shifts a LOT to the amas from being so hard pressed.

Searunner amas are pretty brilliant in ways, especially for their day. Look at how chesty they are up front, with proportionately decreasing buoyancy as one moves aft, and the ama is more and more depressed. This makes it where the more you press the ama downward, the more the amas try to raise the entire boat's bows, preventing stubbing ones toe! It really was a brilliant combination. I have surfed some mighty huge waves, and still felt confident.

In many ways, ones taste change with age and experience. As a MUCH younger man... I loved my last boat, with its open wings, and just net out there. I got her up to 19 knots a couple of times, and one "warp speed event" was late at night, hard to windward, crossing the Gulf Stream, in 30 + knots of N wind & 20' seas! I was in the "observation bubble", and after flying off of a big wave, we went down and "through" the next. The bubble was UNDER for 4 or 5 seconds. Like I've said before, "a man's gotta know his limitations"! At the time, I had not yet learned mine. (This was my girlfriend's, now wife's, FIRST cruise).

Now, I prefer solid wings under foot, and the "vent wing" 34 is a good compromise between open and winged tris. She pounds a tad less, but I have decks to walk around on. I can't drive her to windward with impunity, like on the SC28, but the pounding serves a good purpose.

I know really well when to reef, or go on the defensive. When she just slaps once in a while, that's just a good 9 knot to windward kinda day. If she starts to pound REALLY HARD, and pump the mast, I go to the staysail & double reefed main. At this point, with the 100% buoyancy amas half way depressed, I have backed off already, and never got more than half way toward capsize! You couldn't POSSIBLY, not know when to reef!

On ONE occasion, we were hit by about 60 knots, suddenly, with FULL sail up. The ama decks actually went under, just a bit. Being so heavily loaded, she just popped back up.

There is a lot to be said for clunky ol solid wing trimarans... They're more civilized. Now that I live in fear of a 6 month repair from "being stupid", I sail with reserve, and have just as much fun.

M.
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Old 07-05-2012, 20:31   #1176
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Very interesting there Mark.
Can you please let me know what you think of the variety sail configerations for SR's
My set up is with a fuler on the inside using the staysail.
And with 2 forstays side by side on the bow.
On them I hank on a variety of sails.
I use the yankee with the staysail and can hold the jankee up to 30 knots - staysail coming down at 20 knots. Sometimes on a reach i use the mule alone when its 20 to 30 knots. I have 2 Genoa's that i can hank on both forestays and go wing to wing. I usually try and drop the genoa around 15 knots before it gets to 20 but often leave it too late.
In New Zealand we can easily get 40 knots of wind its very common really. Its rare i reef the main cause the boat seems so well balanced with a full man combining with pretty much any foresail. I have not used the spinnaker as yet stowed in its own shoot.
I believe using the long pole and almost reaching it would work well in very light air's, up to 10 knots of wind. But like i say havnt dont it yet. I think because they are such a big spinnaker the idea of the spinnaker was for ghosting along light 3 to 4 knots of wind where most others eg cats would be motoring. From my readings the longer SR pole was to have the spinnaker forward of the bow allowing for better control of your vessel. I am looking forward to putting the darn thing up one day but on my own it might get a bit tricky. Anyway what i am interested in is .... wonder if its better to do away with all these sails and put one sail out the front on a fuler and should that be the jankee in conjunction with the staysail... gets complicated in words...
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:40   #1177
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Rossad,



This link, MIGHT take you to a YouTube showing us barely ghosting along down wind, in light air. This is the downside of our "Geriatric rig". It is under powered in very light (< 8 knots), of air... UNTIL we raise the smallish to medium sized spinnaker in a sock. We could also use a screecher on a roller, but don't have one yet.

AFTER long conversations with John Marples, I drew the changes we'd discussed, (full blueprint size), and sent them to John for a good double check... Basically:

We have a 4' taller rig, with BIG lapper headsail, and always sail as a sloop. This works great from 8 to 28 knots of wind, when we start roller reefing the headsail, and/or put a reef in the main. This is more to level out the boat, than being over powered. Roller reefing a "HIGH CLEW" sail, doesn't require sheet lead car adjustments! The two lower photos above, show us sailing with almost full sail, to windward, but a bit of a roll on the headsail. (9 knots boat speed)...

With our roller furling line's clutch, reefing is a one handed operation, for one person, by luffing for a second, between pulls... re-grip, and do it again, (while steering with the other hand). At sea, in a gale, we head down wind, to reduce the drama to "0"!

Long term, over 30 knots of wind, we strike the headsail, tighten the runners, and raise the staysail on its wire. The stay is in place when at sea, as are the runners, (which have their chainplates 1 station forward). Only for daysailing on the river here, do we "Stow" the staysail stay, by pulling it aft, and only well off of the wind do we move the runners to their storage position.

When tacking the lapper, WITH the staysail wire up, our leather bound, eye spliced sheets, VS knots, keeps them from snagging on the wire.

Even with the same sail area, raising the staysail, VS half way rolled up headsail, lowers the center of effort, and levels the boat right out! It also takes a better shape.

Double reef (or totally strike) the main, with staysail only, and we become the "vomit comet", driving hard into big seas and 35 + knot headwinds. The boat can take more than us.

On a quick daysail in the river, we just roll out the lapper, as the boat sails fine with just that. We only gain about a knot from the main, & some balance.

In the Eastern Caribbean, we kept the main double reefed for weeks on end. We didn't want to go faster!

This is a great rig, except you need light air sails. The thing about double headstays, like yours, is that with the load on each divided in half, you would have a "less than taught" headstay, unless you double the load on the backstay to compensate. This is not great for the mast or the boat...

You could go with a large, high clew, roller furling lapper, and sail as a sloop like us, OR as a cutter. Then you don't leave the cockpit in heavy air, only in light air, to rig up a spinnaker in a sock. (Takes 10 minutes) OR... for a daysail, just go slow.

I think that deck sweeping Genoas are a pain in the ass. They're hard to see under, hard to tack, and even if roller furling, the sheet leads have to be moved forward as you roller reef. NOT so with a heavily built, roller furling lapper! (With our tall rig, ours is about the size of the designed Genoa).

With your standard rig, your lapper would be smaller than ours, but with roller furling on your staysail, you could add on sail with it, in light air. (Maybe that mule)?

It is great to stay in the cockpit in a gale!

Oh yes... We have a STORM staysail, and used it once. Under regular staysail, we had been trying to continue across the Gulf of Mexico in 40 knot headwinds, and got pooped when a wave broke well over the top of the hard dodger. Then I switched to the little one, but it was too little to continue to drive into it. Off of the wind, it was OK. I have never used the storm staysail since, as I no longer "sail stupid"! Why get beat up, when you can just fall off?

Hope this helps.

M.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:17   #1178
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

"Rigging up the stanchions...." This one is easy....Stanchions can be built with U-bracket bases that let the stanchions pivot aft on a bolt. Unhook the forward life line, fold back and secure for trailering- raise forward when you get there. Most of this things are easy to address. The Mast should only take a few hours to set up and rig- just check tensions over the next few days and regularly inspect. Cruising does take preparation but thinking things through and itemizing a procedure list for launching can speed things up.

We have more of a double head sail sloop. We use a lighter genoa for moderate airs and bend on a smaller heavier genoa with a higher clew when it is going to be consistantly stronger. Either sail works great with the furler when it kicks up. We use a track with a sliding genoa car and adjusting tackle so we can retain the end plate advantages of a lower foot. very easy to use. We rig the staysail when it kicks up for long enough to make it worth setting. On a fast changing day, the furler with the heavy genoa handles all the chores. Off wind a chute without a pole is easy to use.
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Old 09-05-2012, 16:04   #1179
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

When I was down at the yard today to gather a bunch of trailer photos for Mark, I happened to notice these killer clouds. Sometimes art just happens. I know we all think and operate in the functional, seaworthy mode. But I am sure many of you are struck by the beauty of these wonderful boats now and then. I know I am!

Hey Mark! You got (a lot) of mail dude!

Reflections everywhere. The Awl-grip is holding up great.

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High armpits, narrow hulls, wide stance, weight in the middle...all the right ingredients!


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This shot below is the angle I am always trying to get, and is hard without a real wide angle lens. It shows the depth of those high wings, the narrowness of the hulls. So nice!

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Old 09-05-2012, 18:23   #1180
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thanks for the trailer photos Jack, (long download). I owe you one. I may pick your brain more later... I've got to ponder a bit.

Corazon is still beautiful! You should be very proud. I know it must break your heart to part with her, but I understand, things change, and so must we.

I agree... With Searunners, they just got so much right!

M.
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Old 10-05-2012, 13:56   #1181
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thank you for the detailed explanation Mark--will print that one off for reference!

Wow--that Corazon is beautiful! What a deal.
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Old 10-05-2012, 17:41   #1182
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yea thats what i reckon.....what a deal....
Its crazy these tri's of Jim Browns people just dont get it.
These boats just dont fetch good prices anymore.
Yet the build and fitout in 2012 is kinda out of the question.
Expense time and heartache.... chanllenging yourself .... for completion...
Life doesnt seem long enough or fair.
I think of poor Roy working to complete his SR40 it must be a big task.
Anyway i will one day post some pics of my 37.
I would like to see some pics of Cavalier MK2 tri...
Wonder what where the changes with the MK2.
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Old 10-05-2012, 18:32   #1183
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hey Rossad, here are a couple pictures, the staysail uses searunner hardware but has a longer luff, 3/4 of the way up the mast. The Vagabond Mk2 has longer amas, less aerodynamic lift on the wings and a less wide transom than the MK1. The cruising version of the MK1 was the Wanderer design, the mk2 cruising version is the Cavalier (no MKs) with 10" more freeboard for more room and load. My Vagabond MK2 has a longer cabin with a hard dodger which is great for our rain.
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Old 14-05-2012, 08:35   #1184
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Check out this link! Multis and friends, @ 30+ knots...

Everybody - YouTube

It doesn't belong on a "Cruiser's Forum", but is fun to watch anyway...

M.
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Old 14-05-2012, 09:56   #1185
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Awesome!
I betcha can't watch it without smiling ear to ear.....
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