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Old 12-03-2012, 17:43   #1036
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by clockwork orange View Post
With all paint types preperation is everything, i recently spent time aboard a mid 80s production fiberglass cat that had been painted with latex house paint some years ago,hull and decks, it is flaking off the fiberglass and will be a difficult job to get ready to repaint with whatever. the owner paid about half of what these things typically go for largely because of this. If it had been repainted with LPU back then by roll and tipping it would not have been so expensive as all the paint goes on the boat, not in the air and it would have preseved the value of the boat.
Steve.
Yeah, but other factors may be involved. House paints generally do very well over fiberglass.
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:05   #1037
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Darn Mark that was for those not yet consumed by the yacht treadmill. Now I'm sure you're not taking this too seriously but I have maintained, built and used boats for that length of time in steel,fiberglass,composite and wood and have worked on and used boats professionally. as well. Before LP's the crowd used lead based paints. Also safe enough with the right handling but the same sort of thinking that is damaging the planet consistently. Read your Jim Brown Searunner books on finishing again. A safe paint system for everyone to use is a great thing allowing the boat work to be a family project versus an experts only (and lonely) affair. I'm not trying to tell people what to paint with just point out factors that aren't often considered. I believe 99% of the world don't share those views because of the current state of society but the 1% of us have to be smart enough to realize we live on the same planet and breath the same air....Those boats are worth zip if nobody is around to sail them. If things continue as they are more of these choices will be legislated to save others from the consequence. In Washington State we are getting rid of copper antifouling to which I say great. I try to stay a step ahead and already use water based coatings with reduced content and don't mind the extra scrubbing that comes with being responsible. Back before I'd really stopped to thing about things paints like Trinidad SR etc.....seemed to make sense, but in reality the consequences don't add up. While people may be trying for the Darwin Awards for extinction evolution makes more sense than misplaced pride in surface coatings. I'm sure people will keep innovating non toxic solutions to paints but to use them people have to open their minds before they open the can. Ain't freedom great!
Cheers
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:06   #1038
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Jimske View Post
Yeah, but other factors may be involved. House paints generally do very well over fiberglass.
I'm going to try some on a work car, my test patch is holding up really well!
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Old 12-03-2012, 18:19   #1039
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quick vid of our searunner 37 "Pegasos" having fun and then not so much fun. Excuse the copywrite free music.

Also for anyone wanting to get out of the weather I built my cockpit cover with inspiration from Jim Brown's design. This cost me about $1500 ish in materials and I sewed it up myself (not inc the dodger). Cant see the sails as easily but don't get sunburnt or wet either



I'm lazy so haven't read the forum rules again recently ... hopefully this link is ok

cheers

Jon
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Old 12-03-2012, 19:21   #1040
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2 View Post
Darn Mark that was for those not yet consumed by the yacht treadmill. Now I'm sure you're not taking this too seriously but I have maintained, built and used boats for that length of time in steel,fiberglass,composite and wood and have worked on and used boats professionally. as well. Before LP's the crowd used lead based paints. Also safe enough with the right handling but the same sort of thinking that is damaging the planet consistently. Read your Jim Brown Searunner books on finishing again. A safe paint system for everyone to use is a great thing allowing the boat work to be a family project versus an experts only (and lonely) affair. I'm not trying to tell people what to paint with just point out factors that aren't often considered. I believe 99% of the world don't share those views because of the current state of society but the 1% of us have to be smart enough to realize we live on the same planet and breath the same air....Those boats are worth zip if nobody is around to sail them. If things continue as they are more of these choices will be legislated to save others from the consequence. In Washington State we are getting rid of copper antifouling to which I say great. I try to stay a step ahead and already use water based coatings with reduced content and don't mind the extra scrubbing that comes with being responsible. Back before I'd really stopped to thing about things paints like Trinidad SR etc.....seemed to make sense, but in reality the consequences don't add up. While people may be trying for the Darwin Awards for extinction evolution makes more sense than misplaced pride in surface coatings. I'm sure people will keep innovating non toxic solutions to paints but to use them people have to open their minds before they open the can. Ain't freedom great!
Cheers

I live as close to the Earth as anyone I know of, in many ways, but not always with my boat building! If I did, I would make them out of reeds or unpainted planks, so that it would biodegrade within a year or two. I would not use epoxy, or glass outside. It would be rigged with hemp rope and cotton sails, etc.

I have endured well over 100,000 hrs at being in da bot bidness, over the last 40 years, and I can tell you, it is one nasty, NOT environmentally friendly occupation. Building a boat to stand the test of time, "starts out" seeming even more so. These chemicals required to mummify the structure, makes a lot of nasty, non biodegradable waste. Paint is just a very small fraction of the nasty stuff that went into making YOUR boat and mine... I go through a lot of paper towels, stir sticks, mix pots, rubber gloves, syringes, solvents, resin, fiberglass, sandpaper galore, etc! I don't like this about boatbuilding, but:

I also have come to hate the throw away society that we live in. Weather it's boats, houses, furniture, a dock, or a pick nick table, I build them to stand the test of time. In the end, I think that this extra work produces LESS waste on the planet, even considering the waste required to make it so long lived, because it is still less waste than building 5 of the more biodegradable versions. This seems like a lost concept these days, but I apply it to my boat as well, and the 32 year old plywood that makes up the hull, is still perfect! There are a LOT of old dead boats out there, because the owners finally just gave up, due to maintenance. A WEST system, epoxy glassed boat, with LP paint, avoids this pitfall.

I am not shooting for smooth and fair for looks, it's because smooth and fair is much easier to power sand, paint, fit hardware to, scrub, and live with, in many ways. I don't use LP paints for the slick appearance and shine, I use them in spite of these things, solely because they stand the test of time better than anything else. Like I said, I really prefer semi gloss paint, as it's more businesslike.. Thus the flattening paste. I painted this stitch n glue kayak with Awl Grip and flattened it too. I love the semi gloss look.

As far as humankind... Unless folks wise up and realize that the Earth can't sustain their current numbers, much less twice as many again, their in deep ****, IMO... It boggles the mind that so many disagree with common sense, like using BIRTH CONTROL. I try not to dwell on it...

In light of the inevitable, I still do the best I can to tread lightly, and be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Ever since the 70s, I was totally solar self sufficient. I could go on and on, but the point is that, we ALL do both good and bad things environmentally. My environmental good, hopefully out weighs the bad. I.E. I run local errands on a 60 MPG vehicle, (my motorcycle), cruise a 34'er, use an 18HP engine, live in a small house, recycle, pick up trash, etc...

I have painted and lived with the ongoing maintenance of 100 or more, one part painted boats, and I just don't think that painting them every other year, (which is my experience, if they are cruised full time), has less impact on the planet than using LP, once every 11-13 years.

If I looked into it, I bet that manufacturing my solar panels was a nasty business too, but the overall benefit, over their 25+ year lifespan, outweighs the environmental downsides to their manufacturing process.

It's the same with boats. Some folks build crude, lumpy, poorly protected, but highly biodegradable boats, and work on them constantly throughout their relatively short life. Others, choose to spend more time and money in building the boat, at home, where you have a car, hardware stores, and an income, Then cruising on a budget, in third world countries, becomes so much more enjoyable. It was for me.

Both methods work, but one way is not entirely more money, or more work, or more environmentally disastrous than the other, as you claim. Not in the long haul... It is more of a difference in investment of time & money spent "at the beginning", or pay it over the boats shorter life with far more maintenance and ultimately, with a poor resale value.

I have done both methods, and painting a Searunner with 1 part paint, every 2 or 3 years, is why so few folks go cruising in them much more than that. It is more work than fun, IMO...

M.
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Old 12-03-2012, 20:07   #1041
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It would appear we just have to agree to disagree about paints because I get the longevity out of latex you get out of LP's. I use epoxy and have a great condition old wood boat. I don't need the syringes but do use sandpaper, paper towels and gloves. Brushes, rollers and gloves are easy to clean with water so can be reused and the latex doesn't off gas toxic solvents while the paint is drying. Sprayers are ridiculous with the self leveling paints available.....so heres to staying upwind! Can we name the canyak Narcissist Emulsion?
Cheers!
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Old 13-03-2012, 03:30   #1042
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Nice finish and nice kayak there Mark. I have been running a kayak company for over 25 years and once i found out about these searunners i have never looked back. I dont think there is a right or wrong about boat paint.... as long as your happy with what you are using and it works in your own head. There is always more to learn about paint in particular....... Wow its exspensive here in NZ i would hate to think what it would cost to paint a Searunner just built... maybe over $10 000
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Old 13-03-2012, 07:31   #1043
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Rossad, the cost to do an LP paint job can vary tremendously, depending on so many things. Examples: Can you do it yourself, and can you live with a more textured finish. Is it the 2nd or 3rd re-paint (so no need to prime), or the first paint job. Can you arrange a cheep boatyard situation, etc.

For us, the boatyard's laydays was the majority of the overall bill, as I got my paint @ 50% off. The trick is to find a cheep place to haul... I have hired a crane on several hauls. They can put you down in a water's edge vacant lot, if needs be!

I wasn't looking for cosmetic perfection, so tolerated some orange peel, as well as a few runs and sags. The Ocean would never know.

If it is a repaint over 100% sound LP paint, you don't need to re-prime. (Although "they" may tell you differently), you don't! This cuts the amount of paint required, time required, and money, in half! You DO, however, have to get the hull very clean and 100% sanded. This is easy to know. After solvent washing with the "double rag method", you smear Guide cote (= pigmented acetone), all over the area to be painted. This turns it translucent black. Then you use 320 grit and a random orbit sander until there are no more black areas. This is when a smooth, fair, hull pays you back, because you don't miss low areas, and go through the primer on high areas. Next, you wipe, tack, and paint. The actual painting goes very fast, and only constitutes about 5% of your time on the project. The other 95% is sanding, masking, and papering...

BY FAR, the hardest part, and only part that is far easier if sprayed, is the tedious cabin sides, cockpit, and abundant trim around the non skid areas. This is perhaps only 10 or 15% of the boat's surface area! The hulls, and underwings are easily done by "roller / tip" if you choose to. (We're going to the boatyard next month, to do the bottom, (after 6 years since the last haul), and we will also roll on a couple of coats of AwlGrip on the underwings (only). The paint under there is 17 years old, perfectly sound, and never had any touchups... It "just is" starting to ghost through. The rest of the boat has had 1 repaint in 17 years, and still fine.

On the HUGE non skid areas, (= 40 or 50% of the boat's surface), we found some real money, time, and pollution saving techniques. The 100% bond to the hull, requires careful prep, but... not between the primer and top coat, IF you get the topcoat on there "the following day". Then you get a chemical bond between the layers, that is actually superior to the sanded bond! (I've done test, and know this to be the case)! This is called "hot coating", and we painted every inch above the gunnels, with this "no primer sanding" method, except the cabin sides. That's right, without sanding the primer at all.

This fact makes the nonskid and deck trim go really fast. After prepping the wing decks for nonskid, you mask it into thirds on each side. (A port section, and a starboard section)... Then on day one, (assuming warm STABLE weather), you roll on, without tipping, two coats of opaque grey primer, (which protects the glass / epoxy from UV damage), then the very next day, roll on 3 or 4 coats of topcoat, with twice the amount of "Griptex" as they say, using the SPRAYING catylist, and using faster SPRAYING solvents. You have to roll REALLY fast, so as to not lift the previous 2 hr old coat. (On cooler days, do 2 coats only of non skid, on two successive days, without skipping a day)! On nonskid, the orange peel that you get from rolling and not tipping, as well as flaws from not sanding the primer, actually work for you. Our current non skid is VERY non skid, like 80 grit. It is now in it's 9th year, and every bit as non skid, just gets dirty easier now.

Only on the easy to sand cabin sides and hull sides, are a really good surface called for, if the flaws are not going to show. (That damned reflection)! Here alone, spraying, or very professional roller / tipping, make all the difference. (You could hire someone, only for this 3% of the time expended on the project)... Regardless, much of that "too shiny, and shows every flaw", goes away pretty fast, if you're actually out cruising.

Hardness, 100% bond, solvent resistance, scuff resistance, ease of cleaning, and ultimate lifespan, are what to shoot for on a cruising boat, not cosmetic perfection.

LP paint still is not as good as a production boat's gel coat, for longevity and low maintenance, but it is certainly the next best thing. Then when out cruising, you can adventure, dive, beach comb, mingle ashore, etc, rather than be bound to the boat's maintenance like a ball N chain.

In my boat business, I am, among other things, a consultant in these areas, as well as in marine systems. For a more specific consultation, feel free to contact me privately.

Kind regards,
M.
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Old 13-03-2012, 09:26   #1044
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Those are very thorough instructions that will help any one learning about LP's. Latex takes a trip to the homestore for supplies, washing the boat with water, sanding, rinsing, taping, painting with roller/tip. No primer needed if using nano tech latex even on new fiberglass, other premium formulas work as well, just follow the instructions, you may need their primer on new construction.

Most people renew their LP's for appearance more often wanting the gloss for appearance sake. The Gougeon's try for 5 years between coats . I know latex is good for that long at least except for decks where 2 years is about right. The deck only coat takes just a few hours from start to finish, the whole thing 2-3 days depending on coats.

On another subject has anyone found a good water based varnish substitute?
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Old 13-03-2012, 12:06   #1045
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I think Ross is coming from a somewhat different angle cost wise.

House paint in NZ costs about what marine enamel costs at West Marine here. Standard paint thinner costs what interlux special thinners cost. Really is a shock! NZ was originally settled by the New Zealand Company and really is a for profit enterprise for the haves that pay no capital gains tax while the middle class workers pay all the taxes. Sail up to Fiji and your are paying US prices again for paint and supplies. Has nothing to do with shipping cost, etc the importers and large dealers are just robber barons!

Not looking to offend, but the cost to build my Vardo would easily be twice in NZ vs here in FL using identical materials. The actual difference will be closer to 1/3 as there is a lot more second-hand gear here, winches, mast, etc at much better prices.

Anyhow, will be doing some painting on a Searunner 34 in the next few months. Doing the deck non-skid and cabin top and cockpit. Agreed with the owner on using one-part marine paint.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Old 02-04-2012, 22:06   #1046
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Does anyone know where to find rubber window seal gaskets for Searunners?

Tried 2 glass shops, 3 marine supply houses and Google with no luck.

It's time to replace, and while I could do nuts and bolts windows, I am just a little more comfortable with what the original builder put in.
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Old 02-04-2012, 22:34   #1047
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Does anyone know where to find rubber window seal gaskets for Searunners?

Tried 2 glass shops, 3 marine supply houses and Google with no luck.

It's time to replace, and while I could do nuts and bolts windows, I am just a little more comfortable with what the original builder put in.
No idea!!! I have the same type seal when it started to leak I tried everywhere.
Then to stop the leak I temporarily use stickaflex and just smeared a layer over all the rubber its worked a treat. so its stopped leaking for 10 months and now looks good so its last on my to do list now hope this helps
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Old 02-04-2012, 22:46   #1048
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by md7a View Post
Does anyone know where to find rubber window seal gaskets for Searunners?

Tried 2 glass shops, 3 marine supply houses and Google with no luck.

It's time to replace, and while I could do nuts and bolts windows, I am just a little more comfortable with what the original builder put in.
I replaced my glass windows with leaking rubber gaskets last year useing the method outlined on this posting I made on boat design.net. go to this address-
Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums
then use the search function or scroll to look up "Plastic Window Installation".
I've been pleased with the result, they are stronger,don't leak and its better than the rot trap of dozens of bolts.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:37   #1049
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Have you tried Mcmaster-Carr for the gasket?

Steve.
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Old 03-04-2012, 17:42   #1050
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Searunner Rhinoplasty!

Marples suggested removing the entire nose and deck, but I was able to get the top bolts out by removing just a small section of deck, but there was no other way to get the lower ones.
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