Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Roy M

I have never known a better vessel to surf than a Searunner 40. Jeff Allen was my mentor when I was a grasshopper. It was he who convinced me of the folly of building a "roomeran", such as a big Cross or (heaven forbid) a Horstmann. One long night (as told long ago in Multihull Magazine: "A Nightmare Off Point Loma") I learned just how well a light boat with superb steering qualities can rescue you from stupid decisions.

I am hoping to follow the lead of the Dashews, authors of MARINER'S WEATHER, and avoid bad weather by going fast and knowing how to read the 500 millibar maps off the internet. That assumes I have good comms and better judgement than I've had in the past.

Of course, nothing helps when you are caught away from the boat and the terminal storm takes your boat untended. That was how Jeff lost his Searunner, DINK'S SONG. But that's a story that should be told on a dark night with darker rum, and the wind whistling in the rigging. It brings shivers just thinking about it.

Agreed on both counts, Roy. I can't think of a boat that I would rather be on, in the really bad stuff, than a Searunner...

Yep, Jeff Allen is the "real deal". (Not just "a legend in his own mind"). We buddy boated on occasion, and on a 5 day passage from Georgetown Bahamas to PR, where we stayed within VHF range, (or within sight), Mariam and I did 3 or 4 hr watches. Jeff could always be reached on the radio! He can really stay on watch, awake & alert, spotting every ship, for DAYS, without a break.

Hope he is enjoying getting re-acquainted with his friends and beloved islands in the pacific, and that they stay out of that Japan tsunami debris field!

M.

[Cavalier MK2]

Latex paint is the only way to go, Light-with out innumerable build coats, easy to touch up and long lasting-those houses never get a break and thats where the research money goes..... for really great adhesion check out the formulas using nano technology and smile because you aren't off gassing fumes that put those holes in the ozone. When it comes time to sand you'll be happy you sail green!
Performance wise how do Searunners compare with the CC designs? The Searunners top out at about 12- 13 knots in flat water according to Jim Brown. How about the Marples?
Staying awake for days as a habit sounds like a habit rather than good seamanship (legends out of their minds?

[Roy M]

Everything has a price. Latex stains easier and needs touchups more often than some folks recognize. Some folks prefer to spend the money to use a durable product with much higher resistance to wear and staining, while enjoying a finish that is attractive and color retentive. Since LPU lasts a very long time, release of solvents is limited and widely spaced.

As for speed, it depends on the length of the boat. My standard for WILDERNESS is sailing out from San Diego Bay, in the lee of Point Loma, providing flat water and good, solid 12-15 knot wind sweeping in from the starboard beam. In those conditions I can expect a dependable 12-15 knots, when carrying four to six people, and light cruising payloads and equipment. As we enter the open sea, we pick up speed from following seas, or we slow down to reduce the crash into square waves and chop. Still, there is no one faster than we are, except for ORACLE, but then, she can't make it to Hawaii in ten days (yet). Personally, I don't need faster cruising speeds than 12-15 knots. It makes for awkward moments if I fail to evade floating debris or sleepy whales.

Different folks, different boats. You can sail what makes you happy. I made my choice a long time ago, and have no interest in changing vessels. There are lots of great boats, and skippers, and there are plenty of dogs and showboats. And only you get to make the choice that really matters.

[Mark Johnson]

I've already given my take on paints, and "paying the up front price". In the old days many Wharrams were un-sheathed in glass altogether, (ONLY PAINT!) They had only wood preservative inside, on bare plywood, and were quickly banged together with galvanized nails, on a beach! The owners then went on very successful cruises, for a couple of years only, and then moved on to something else. (After selling the boat for next to "0") If that's your cup of tea, by all means use Latex house paint.

With a well designed and executed boat, built with modern construction techniques & materials... To then paint such a boat with Latex house paint, you would be ruining the long term low maintenance attributes of the boat, and reducing the resale value drastically. It makes no sense.

LPs have been around for many decades, and are designed for the much harsher environment of commercial aircraft and boats. (AwlGrip started out as AlumaGrip, solely for commercial jets). These paints can achieve truly remarkable adhesion, abrasion & stain resistance, and be washed with harsh solvents, like Acetone or MEK, to get caulk, grease, stains, etc, off of it. If you keep a boat and cruise it hard for decades, then LP paints pay for themselves many times over.

About speed... For REALLY fast boats, a Newick, very lightly loaded, is the way to go! OR an old Condor, OR Twiggy, OR for real speed... one of Russ Brown's proas! These are fast, but not long term liveaboard cruisers.

Although we can go 9 knots, hard to windward, or double digits off of the wind, Searunners, and John's CC designs, are not meant to be speedsters. They are meant to strike a perfect balance between accommodation, speed, seaworthiness, seakindliness, and overall livability. Our SR34 is roughly equivalent in interior space and livability to the CC37. Our wings and their storage provide more space on a given WL. The CC37 would definitely be faster than our SR 34, due to it's longer WL, and with open wings, it could be driven harder to windward. Nevertheless, For full time liveaboard, (for > 10 years), the winged over SRs have more going for them. The extra storage space, and being able to walk around at sea, make them a nicer home. (Roy's 40'er is way faster than our SR 34 btw)

Having said that, if I were to build another from scratch, I would build a CC design for their simplicity, lack of stringers, and quicker build time. I'd just build a longer CC design, than the size Searunner that would suffice. Being that I'M DONE, regarding building boats larger than a dink or kayak, I consider myself VERY lucky to have our SR 34, one of the best Designs out there, IMO...

For the most outrageous, "balls to the walls" passage EVER made on a Searunner, you should check out John Marple's description of winning the TransPac on Bacchanal. (Steady surfing @ around 20 knots, day & night, even having a guy go aloft at this speed!!!) It is on his surveying & maintenance CD I think, @ Outrig...

One other point...
Roy & I have referred to our friend Jeff Allen on occasion. I was only referring to stories that Roy & I know, where Jeff's standing a 2 day + stint at the wheel, in 50' seas, saved their bacon. I was relating how I knew these stories to be true.

When we buddy boated from Georgetown, Bahamas to PR, in 5 days, we set out at night, going hard to windward, due East, into 25+ knot NE winds, for much of the first three days! Then we relaxed a bit, and turned S for 2 more days into the Mona Passage, surfing a HUGE swell. It was not Jeff's "habit" that kept him more or less on watch for days, it was seamanship. He knows when he needs to rest, and his lovely Dutch wife Jose, can "spell him" just fine, when ever needed.

If any of you ever see a Cross trimaran, "Stravaig" out there, by all means stop by. He will likely ask you over for a sundowner. Jeff has been a lifetime cruiser / boatbuilder for longer than my 40 years. He responded to loosing a leg @ 21 by saving up & building a SR 40, and then sailing the world... (Replenishing the kitty by doing everything from working as a vet on Pentecost island, to being an extra in the movie Bounty, which was being shot in Tahiti). Later, he responded to loosing his SR 40 in Gibraltar, (due to no fault of his own), by moving ashore in Portugal, where along with Jose, they started a vet business... All the while, designing and building one of the best designed catamarans I've ever seen! He had a heart attack in the process, yet finished the boat, crossed the Atlantic, and we met in the Chesapeake, 6 years ago. After sailing to Trinidad, They sold the cat, (for being too big and expensive to own, in his retirement), then bought and TOTALLY rebuilt an old Cross 43 in Ca. After setting out for the Panama Canal, they hit a whale, (taking serious damage), then got in an off season hurricane, at sea! They survived, and did their repairs in Panama. This was followed by sailing the length of the Caribbean again, and then BACK through the canal. They next set out for 5 weeks to the Marquesas, where they are now!
Jeff is about 70 now, and like I said, when it comes to sailing the World, on his own creations, he's the real deal! If there was a "Multihull cruiser's hall of fame", they would be on the short list.

Fair winds,
M.

[Cavalier MK2]

Latex can be quite smooth and attractive and can last years 5 years between coats on hulls and underwings and really then only needing paint for a fresh appearance. The harder semi gloss, gloss wears better and stains less. High value is to some what you value . Yachtsmen tend to go for the gloss and polish and to hell with the cost, after all their friends demand the same as apperances often outweigh substance. I value a boat that can carry me cruising quickly' letting me be frugal with fossil fuels and paint with products that minimize damage to myself or the environment. And it is fun to sail past some of that expensive gloss! Priceless moments...And sailing away from the docks, those sandy feet or muddy anchors are much less traumatic to deal with on a boat that is meant to be used. We've all seen people freak out when a dock or dinghy marred that money or labor intensive paint job. How fun is that?
Cruising wing deck tris do tend to be faster than cruising cats yet slower than open wing sport tris. It is sort of like racing the family car when speed comparisons are made. Whose wagon coasts down those big hills fastest? I like Searunners and Marples but also Cross and Horstmans. From what I've seen the Searunners might accelerate a bit faster than the CC's but we haven't paced them. We have caught CC35s hence my curiosity.
Jim Brown is a great guy, he and JoAnn ran off plans for a Brown 41 I was checking into and he gave me a great sailing machismo lecture when he learned I sailed a Nicol tri. I apologise to Jeff for my attempt at humor but on these forums the youngsters will think of rum soaked sea stories of storms at sea and may try hazardously to emulate them. The Art Piver outrun those breakers technique does have its place but shouldn't be tried by newbies who haven't had practice or sleep, Jim would say the same. When someone wipes out on a multihull it makes us all look worse. I like Roy's watch the weathermap approach because good sailors try to avoid the blows. Weather these days is getting less predictable and on a longer passage sooner or later everyone has to be prepared for it.
"Now it was a dark and stormy night........"
Cheers.

[Mark Johnson]

SEARUNNER CONSTRUCTION MANUAL... Mariam & I just went to our storage situation in KY, and brought back our long stored collection of crap. I found that I have an extra copy of the old "SEARUNNER CONSTRUCTION MANUAL". If anybody wants to buy it, send offers to me in a PM...
M.

[Jimske]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

Latex can be quite smooth and attractive and can last years 5 years between coats on hulls and underwings and really then only needing paint for a fresh appearance. The harder semi gloss, gloss wears better and stains less. High value is to some what you value . Yachtsmen tend to go for the gloss and polish and to hell with the cost, after all their friends demand the same as apperances often outweigh substance. I value a boat that can carry me cruising quickly' letting me be frugal with fossil fuels and paint with products that minimize damage to myself or the environment. And it is fun to sail past some of that expensive gloss! Priceless moments...And sailing away from the docks, those sandy feet or muddy anchors are much less traumatic to deal with on a boat that is meant to be used. We've all seen people freak out when a dock or dinghy marred that money or labor intensive paint job. How fun is that?

Got to agree. Todays "latex house paints" are not your grandfathers latex either. My SR31 (1994) was initially painted with a urethane. I have subsequently used latex house paint on the hulls. 5 years without the need to repaint. The hulls got kind of scratched up this past fall in the river during the flood from giant trees. Still not so bad but I will repaint. Total cost less than $100.00 and I will do it myself in a single day.

As far as affecting the value? Could be a real asset knowing that it will never need an expensive paint job and repairs are inexpensive and quick even if you are not in a marina or on a dock.

J

[Cavalier MK2]

One thing I forgot to mention was the weight build up from hard paints such as epoxy and urethanes, 2 parts etc...The latex can be sanded back easily but the other paints tend to get surfaces sanded and coated over. When I had to sand down through 30-40 years of paint because the bottom layers were failing it amounted to a lot of weight and a lot of work. Those paint cans are heavy and if it never comes off you are using your payload for paint. The good thing though about choices is everyone can finish and refinish their boats to suit themselves. The latex deck paint doesn't last as long but it only takes a few hours to put on and renews the nonskid at the same time. Practical and easy on the eyes...

[Mark Johnson]

Jimske & Cavalier... This post is not meant for you. I see that you have your own ideas, and they are working for you. It's not up to me to refute your experience with latex house paint, but...

For OTHERS that are about to paint a "totally sound" previously LP painted hull, OR a bare hull of a new boat... LP is the ONLY logical choice.

Latex house paint is not advisable in my view, unless it is put on a boat that has a low market value to begin with, due to it's age, design, or condition. And you are looking at the short term solution...

My previous boat, A SC 28, was a WEST system, LP paint, beauty. After it changed hands, it had it's practical usefulness and resale value, cut by 300%, instantly, when the owner at the time couldn't bring himself to "pay the up front price, up front", and used a one part paint over the LP paint. A really bad move!

This is a "life of the boat" decision that is not easily reversible, because the future owners might want LPs, but the 100% removal of all NON LP, one part paint, (which you can't overcoat with 2 part paints), is such a huge task. The work takes months, and is VERY hard to accomplish, with 100% removal, without removing (In places), the paper thin epoxy coating over the fiberglass sheathing! This is not acceptable. NO glass fiber is to be showing, so re-epoxying the surface may well be necessary, after stripping the old paint.

LP paints that are properly applied to a new, properly prepared hull, do NOT peel when they fail, OR loose adhesion. Over many years, (10 - 15), their surface chalks away like ablative bottom paint. When you repaint an LP, the previous coating, (which started out at a fraction of the mills of a one part paint), is now much thinner, and the primer, (grey is best), is ghosting through. NOWHERE should there be peeling or loss of adhesion, if it was applied correctly to a sound substrate. This is one of their many advantages! Properly applied... THEY DON"T PEEL, FLAKE, OR COMPLETELY FAIL!

LP paints are generally sprayed on, and VERY thin. (The liquid, mixed and ready to spray, is MUCH thinner than water, and runs easily). It is indeed expensive, "at first", and requires the skills and patience necessary to apply.

A gallon of mixed paint, that consist of base, hardener, accelerator drops, solvent, and perhaps even some flattening paste, will still be ONE gallon of paint. This mixed 1 gallon might weigh 9 pounds in the can, but on the hull, after curing, only 2 or 3 pounds! Their is unfortunately a lot of overspray that gets away, and what lands on the hull as intended, is full of solvent. After the solvent evaporates, the remaining paint is a fraction of it's original weight.

After 40 years of hard cruising, on a boat covered with LP paints, it might only have been painted 3, or at most 4 times. Each time, over the previous totally sound paint job, with it's grey primer once again ghosting through. After a light 320 grit sanding, you are back to the mills of the first paint job. Without a doubt, In the end of this 40 years, a properly prepped and applied LP painted boat, (that always had only LP paint), will have FAR less parasitic weight in paint, than the same boat with ANY type of one part paint.

Determining ones carbon footprint is more complex than looking at just one issue. As an avid environmentalist, I have as low a carbon footprint as anyone that I know, personally... YES, LP paints are environmentally nasty paints. The solvents flash off, and in application, if you breath it unprotected, it can kill you!

To cut overspray in half, I use an HVLP spray gun, and don't re-prime on later re-paints. I paint far less often, (making up for the pollution on application). My paint job looks better, and I have a much lower maintenance boat. (Higher resale too!)

When I install new hardware, it is bolted AND bonded to the hull, because I can. The paint's bond is that good! When I caulk down bits N pieces, like hardware, handholds, ports, etc, I can then solvent wipe the base, to clean up the excess caulk. (I can even use Acetone or MEK on bad stains). I can rebuild the OB motor on the wing deck, and the gasoline, grease, or solvent used to clean up the grease, is not going to lift my paint. LP is easier to keep clean, and much tougher than ANY one part paint. It is even easy to touch up, if you lower your standards aesthetically! I have little dings all over the boat, that I filled & sanded, then primed and painted, with an artist brush, (while hanging over the side). The repair is only visible to me, and even then, I have to look for it. If one doesn't like LP's being "so shiny that it shows every flaw", adding flattening paste makes it a beautiful semi gloss.

Bear in mind, that I am suggesting LP paints only for NEW boats, or old ones that have always had ONLY LP paints, that were and still are perfectly sound, and merely chalking thin. If you have a boat with ANY type of one part paint, (not yet stripped, 100%, of all of it), then the switch to LPs is perhaps more work than it's worth. Use whatever one part, none lasts very long...

Our LP painted boat was launched 16 years ago, and as full time liveaboards for 12 of those years, we've covered tens of thousands of sea miles, visited dozens of countries, and hundreds of islands. The boat has had only 1 re-paint!

With 40 years in the boat building & repair business, either as a vocation or avocation, my experience has been that all one part paints, applied to a boat being cruised hard, has an extremely finite lifespan, requiring many re-paints in a third world situation, rather than perfect circumstances "before your cruise", back home. (Yes... I have even painted Searunners from their gunnels up, while out on the hook, with one part paint & a brush).

I can certainly see that there are situations, like previously mentioned, where one part paints are the way to go, but they are NOT lighter, easier, tougher, or "better" in any way. Over 40 years, if you figure in the extra yard bills, they're not even less expensive!

Good luck with all of our paint choices...
M.

[Cavalier MK2]

This comment is meant for those considering whether to participate in a lifetime use of toxic substances not those who count on those substances and have come to be dependent on them..... Would you rather use a paint where you could apply it without danger and get excellent results for less money or use a product that can kill you if the ventilation is wrong? After more than 40 years of sailing I've seen latex paints provide a superior result . They can be used over many coatings without the "perfect preparation from new" caveat associated with linear polyurethanes, which I have seen blister and fail on extended immersion after professional application. LP's can work well when the ifs and buts are followed to the letter however for a sustainable ecologically sound finish latex is far superior and incredibly durable. Think about the paint prep the average house gets and the fact that the paint is expected to last 10+ years through all weathers.

Epoxy interior coatings build up on repaints because they are so hard to remove, not a light long term solution.....

A 2/3 toxic solvent into the atmosphere paint application is incredibly destructive. If houses were painted that way our air quality would be even worse.

A water based paint won't hurt anything.

Starting a trend towards sustainable ecology is important, like a fur coat that shiny gloss is a sad and tacky proclamation of a flawed value system. When you arrive in a far away port you are viewed as a "mark" not a friend on a journey.

Eventually as air quality continues to deteriorate these paints will no longer be an option unless applied in a hanger sized booth, laws will catch up with them. So contemplate what you're really saying when you advocate that "hard" finish, another world awaits.....

I

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

This comment is meant for those considering whether to participate in a lifetime use of toxic substances not those who count on those substances and have come to be dependent on them..... Would you rather use a paint where you could apply it without danger and get excellent results for less money or use a product that can kill you if the ventilation is wrong? After more than 40 years of sailing I've seen latex paints provide a superior result . They can be used over many coatings without the "perfect preparation from new" caveat associated with linear polyurethanes, which I have seen blister and fail on extended immersion after professional application. LP's can work well when the ifs and buts are followed to the letter however for a sustainable ecologically sound finish latex is far superior and incredibly durable. Think about the paint prep the average house gets and the fact that the paint is expected to last 10+ years through all weathers.

Epoxy interior coatings build up on repaints because they are so hard to remove, not a light long term solution.....

A 2/3 toxic solvent into the atmosphere paint application is incredibly destructive. If houses were painted that way our air quality would be even worse.

A water based paint won't hurt anything.

Starting a trend towards sustainable ecology is important, like a fur coat that shiny gloss is a sad and tacky proclamation of a flawed value system. When you arrive in a far away port you are viewed as a "mark" not a friend on a journey.

Eventually as air quality continues to deteriorate these paints will no longer be an option unless applied in a hanger sized booth, laws will catch up with them. So contemplate what you're really saying when you advocate that "hard" finish, another world awaits.....

I

I did qualify my comments as applying to new = never painted, or bare, fully sound hulls, on a well built, FAIR boat...

I concede that latex has worked for you, in your application, on your boat. I doubt that you have sailed the same boat far and wide, for 40 years, or have truly calculated the cost in time and money, of an inferior paint, repeatedly re done, over 40 of those years, which includes final resale value. For most of us, Latex house paint would be a very big mistake!

It sounds like LP paint would be a big mistake for you. It requires paying the up front price, up front, rather than piece meal over years. It also requires having the skill, patience, and knowledge to apply safely.

I seriously doubt that your "overall" damage to the environment has been a bit less than mine, over the last 40 years. This is a complicated subject, that is almost impossible to compare anyway. It gets into everything from insulation, solar powered lifestyle, what you drive, to weather or not you eat beef! Kinda pointless to point to ones driving a Prius as meaning anything at all, if one otherwise lives a consumptive lifestyle. I do not. I have lived a close to the Earth lifestyle, (even 5 years in tents), or other similar close to the Earth alternate lifestyle, for most of my life.

For those concerned about the excess solvent release & associated REAL dangers of spraying LPs, they can instead, roller tip the stuff, for a 80% reduction of both. They can also hire it done, (either way), like 90+ % of boaters using LPs do...

I agree that the "incredible shine", (which lasts the first few years only), is a bit ostentatious. I prefer semigloss myself... (see the attached photo of my AwlGrip job, done 30 years ago, with "flattening paste" added).

In a third world country, however, they see ALL boats as a symbol of such incredible wealth, that shiny paint, or not shiny paint, doesn't change this impression at all! Only stateside would there be a difference in impression given, which is why two identical boats would have totally different resale values, (by like 400%), if one has LP paint, VS the other almost unsalable version, with Latex house paint. This too has to be calculated into comparative costs!

It could be that you're right, latex house paint IS better than LP paint, and the remaining 99.9% of us are ALL wrong, but I doubt it...

I agree to disagree with you on this, however, and respect your right to paint your boat with what ever you choose.

In all sincerity, I'm glad it works for you...
M.

[Jimske]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

It could be that you're right, latex house paint IS better than LP paint, and the remaining 99.9% of us are ALL wrong, but I doubt it...

I agree to disagree with you on this, however, and respect your right to paint your boat with what ever you choose.

In all sincerity, I'm glad it works for you...
M.

Both of you make good points about each coating. "Better" depends on a lot of factors in a given situation. But ultimately each coating will do what it is designed to do - keep water out!

Anecdote - hope you like it. Last year in a crowded anchorage a couple of beauties sailed right into me on anchor and scraped my rudder, stern and a bit of a float. They were mortified, upset and very apologetic asking me what they could do to compensate. Well, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I am married so I just said, "No worries, I can fix this in about an hour with a little epoxy filler and some house paint!"

[FSMike]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

---- we set out at night, going hard to windward, due East, into 25+ knot NE winds, for much of the first three days! ----

Forgive me but I've got to ask --- why?

[clockwork orange]

With all paint types preperation is everything, i recently spent time aboard a mid 80s production fiberglass cat that had been painted with latex house paint some years ago,hull and decks, it is flaking off the fiberglass and will be a difficult job to get ready to repaint with whatever. the owner paid about half of what these things typically go for largely because of this. If it had been repainted with LPU back then by roll and tipping it would not have been so expensive as all the paint goes on the boat, not in the air and it would have preseved the value of the boat.
Steve.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by FSMike

Forgive me but I've got to ask --- why?

Well, we were in Georgetown Bahamas, and it was late in the season for us to get to our goal of Trinidad by H season. Time was wastin...

We had been seriously considering the Bruce Van Sant way of getting to PR. The thing is, It sounded terrible to me... REPEATEDLY getting up in the wee hours of the morning, pulling up the hook, and getting underway in the dark, surrounded by reefs & such, really close to land. This is followed by motoring dead to windward (in light winds, it's true). All this, for a MONTH!

Our boat has an easily bent 6' exposed shaft, (should we snag a crab pot), and doesn't motor that well either. It just sounded much worse than just going to sea and sailing to PR.

With a usual easterly component to the wind, you just can't do it. One waits for a mild norther, and sails it to windward, due East, as fast as you can. YES, we got beat up a bit! Then when the norther peters out and goes easterly again, you are WAY beyond the Bahamas, almost above PR, and you turn south. We rode the easterly a day, (Going South) and on day 5 had another strong norther pushing us from behind. Surfin da biguns in da Mona mon!

I would do it this way again, but not necessarily leave from Georgetown. It might be easier from further north. (less going to windward) Perhaps even leaving from the Beaufort NC inlet. It would be further, but less to windward.

Searunners BTW, can really go to windward.

M.