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Old 24-02-2012, 08:43   #1006
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Just an aside, do you have any more info on that 40 at your dock? like is the owner willing to sell,,,i maybe looking for a cheap project.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by kaimusailing View Post
As the devil's advocate, I was in that debate years ago when there was monohull/multihull war, and there were several designers in the multihull area that got together for a symposium. Now we have catamarans vs trimarans in the last America's Cup. We have catamarans dominating the charter market in the Caribbean.
I guess trimarans are better than catamaran in the smaller sizes, you can get more into a main hull than what you can get into two smaller catamaran hulls. But trimarans haven't really caught on for cruising boats, yet I know several trimaran sailors that have had really good success on cruises. It seems to be unpopular now for them as a cruising boat. You probably have to have acustom builder to make you one now. The racing boats and daysailers are still being made, and they are very effective.
I have a Wharram catamaran, and his mantra is, why build 3 hulls when you can put the added materials into 2 bigger hulls. Popularity has responded with catamarans growing so much of the past few years, but not built to Wharram's desing ideas. The typical large catamaran now produced has a huge deck house that is more condominium like than a sailing boat. This is the configuration that people are chartering, then buying as their own boat. I like the sailing idea of a trimaran, but the problem is condensing the main accommodations into one hull with a couple of almost unusable "floats" to either size. This obviously hasn't caught on. But I know of trimaran home builders that were very happy with their boats as to windward ability and ability to sail rough water with a level deck, better than some other boats.
We've got a Searunner 40 at our dock that was a great cruiser in its heyday, but now the owner has a problem in who can haul it for a rehab, and it's a wood boat with problems from accumulated rain and snow water. It's a lovely boat that will probably sink at the dock.
The key is that any wood boat can be repaired or upgraded. That boat in Greece that brode down, capsized, and sank, needed a bit more survey work, doncha think?
These older designs were inventive me, and we need to do a lot of work to keep them going today. I suggest anyone interested in this area go to Yahoo Groups and look for Classic Multihulls. I think it is a time that came and almost went, something like ferrocement, but there is a resurgence with quite a few of the now aging "new age" desingers.
The main problem with the old Searunners was the plywood and the effect of water intrusion that inevitably happens. The best thing is to haul the boat and clean it out, run dehumidifiers. Get it dry and look for cracks in the sheathing, Grind that off and probe the wood unerneath. Do simple replacement of the wood using epoxy and resheath. If the wood is bad you have to cut it out and replace with similar pieces and encapsulated with epoxy.
These are good boats, well worth preserving, and probably not tha bad of a project. The Greece story really makes me wonder though..
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Old 24-02-2012, 18:08   #1007
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I am in contact with the owner, regularly, but it is not a quick and simple project. The reference to the tri in Greece that broke apart and ended up in the dumpster is applicable to this boat. It was well built originally, but you can't trust plywood when it has begun to deteriorate. I will contact him about what he wants to do. It is hard to find a yard that can haul a boat with this beam and it would probably need to be hauled to be rebuilt.
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Old 24-02-2012, 18:27   #1008
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http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/boa/2858166694.html - not for me but any other interested parties
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Old 25-02-2012, 06:37   #1009
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My experience has been that a major "refit", like repaint over sound paint, in & out, new running & standing rigging, sails, equipment, replace outdated hardware, etc... is totally feasible. This is also true if it includes a HUGE problem, like a hole, in one or two isolated areas. We're still talking a couple of years of work here, and tens of thousands of dollars, however!

If one takes this on, I would definitely haul the boat, and perhaps even build a structure over it. The money spent on a structure will pay for itself many times over. This one, (pictured), cost just over $1,000, including heat, (a $150 mobile home furnace), fans, lights, and 4 tarp covers over 5 years! Our project was 150 miles inland, BTW!

Any yard can haul you IF the boat can approach a bulkhead where a crane can reach both the boat, and your proposed "spot". We've used cranes several times. The straps can go around the main hull only, with spreader bars and safety ropes to pull the two straps together @ the boat's WL.

Having said that, IF it's a pre WEST system / LP paint boat, AND above level of problems exist, AND the paint is peeling in & out, the stringers have black rot in 100 places, and the plywood is weathered everywhere, with delam spots, rot, and / or poor glue bonds from stem to stern... Then, the boat needs a nice ceremony, and "Viking funeral"!

Compared to the above boat project, building from scratch, (assuming you're a boat builder) would be MUCH faster than trying to bring a dead boat back. Building "from scratch" can also be technically easier, more rewarding, and you'll end up with a better boat. This is even more true if one chooses a CC design, goes in with another builder, and splits the mold expense... OR buys a pre built mold 2nd hand.

To those considering it... Be careful what you get into! Some old boats really ARE gems, and others are an "illusion of a boat" that is merely held together by "habit". If you are not sure how to discern which it is, you probably shouldn't get into this size or type of project. Having done all three, I have found that building a boat from scratch, OR a really "major" boat project, can be a similar expense, and 8 to 10 X the work of building a small house!

It may STILL be the way to go, if you're not in a hurry, like to "express your expertise as a builder", and have more spare time than money. In a multi year boat project, if you arrange a really CHEAP lifestyle, and put the boat in your own yard / property, then when money is low, you just put the boat project on hold, and go make more money. NO PAYMENTS!!!

The alternative, of going deep into debt to buy a boat, and paying many times the price because of a higher initial cost, interest, and the required "total hull insurance", (which home builders usually avoid), is still the way to go for most. It does, however, have the downside of requiring that the boat be "paid for" before you really go cruising, or have the bank and insurance co. tell you when and where to go. So neither option is really "instant gratification". That is reserved for the rich & famous.

Being that I could arrange these things my way, knew how to do it, and don't believe in debt at all, it was my only option.

Things that make ya go Hmmmm.

Mark
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Old 25-02-2012, 06:44   #1010
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Roy,
Any recent photos of "your life's work", over there on the left coast?
M
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Old 26-02-2012, 12:44   #1011
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sorry Mark (et al), I have been completely submerged in cash generating work for the last, too many, months. My boat is missing me. I have the shell of my refrigerator freezer longing for its expensive insulation. I have several designs for my dodger that are waiting for the next iteration from the designer. I have the new centerboard serving as a work table on sawhorses. I have a bottom almost devoid of bottom paint, waiting for the haulout. My mast has been stripped of sails, boom and other hardware, waiting for the haulout to pull the stick. And all of the cabinet work and headliner are stripped, waiting for me to install the new plumbing, the hotrod Force 10 stove I converted into a bottom four burner range and upper oven. In short, a whole lot of stuff waiting for me to get the boat hauled and move onto the next phase. Jeff and Jose are giving me no end of grief regarding this, and reminding me how beautiful the Marquesas are at this time of year. And I have fallen in lust with overhauling my electronics, since I began installing all of these Simrad NSS units with broadband radar and structure scan sonar.

Beware the boatbuilding business, young grasshoppers. It can seduce without mercy.
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Old 26-02-2012, 13:07   #1012
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Roy, I am saddened that I never got a chance to swing by and visit while we were anchored at the A9 anchorage in San Diego for the month of January - I only realized within a day of us departing for La Paz, Mexico that you were nearby!

The downside of being a Canadian-flagged vessel in US waters is that there's an expiry date on the permission to be there... our expiry was Feb 1st, and we left the US on January 29th... could have spent another few weeks in the states finishing up boat projects, but now that we're at anchor in La Paz we can get a lot done here...
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Old 27-02-2012, 06:11   #1013
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Sorry Mark (et al), I have been completely submerged in cash generating work for the last, too many, months. My boat is missing me. I have the shell of my refrigerator freezer longing for its expensive insulation. I have several designs for my dodger that are waiting for the next iteration from the designer. I have the new centerboard serving as a work table on sawhorses. I have a bottom almost devoid of bottom paint, waiting for the haulout. My mast has been stripped of sails, boom and other hardware, waiting for the haulout to pull the stick. And all of the cabinet work and headliner are stripped, waiting for me to install the new plumbing, the hotrod Force 10 stove I converted into a bottom four burner range and upper oven. In short, a whole lot of stuff waiting for me to get the boat hauled and move onto the next phase. Jeff and Jose are giving me no end of grief regarding this, and reminding me how beautiful the Marquesas are at this time of year. And I have fallen in lust with overhauling my electronics, since I began installing all of these Simrad NSS units with broadband radar and structure scan sonar.

Beware the boatbuilding business, young grasshoppers. It can seduce without mercy.
I can relate Roy. This is a big, expensive year for us too. I don't want to add more "stuff" to the boat, but things are wearing out... We are currently replacing the 16 year old enclosure canvass, while I simultaneously, am busy trying to make a living. In spring, a big haul out to paint under the wings, & in the vent hole, replace the transom's gear shift boot, and the 6 year neglected bottom paint. Then over summer, start replacing standing rigging, piece at the time. Keeping the boat for the "long haul" is a LOT of work, isn't it?

We definitely plan on getting back "out there" when life allows, and I have no doubt that Jeff & Jose are having more fun than we are! Guess we better get a move on...
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Old 27-02-2012, 06:59   #1014
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

There is a big time project SR 40 for sale in Jacksonville, FL. Have not seen it myself, but would happy to evaluate it for someone, check Jacksonville craigslist.

Mark: did you paint that door with the blue epoxy? How many coats needed for good coverage. I to have tried the epoxy pigments and never had good results. The article in Epoxyworks on the Gougeons new cat last fall showed a picture of the interior that was supposed done with white pigments West System that looks like white LP hard to imagine it really was.

How has the blue held up to UV and chalking, etc. I really want to use some type of industrial bridge paint type product on my hulls as opposed to Awlgrip or the other direction housepaint. Hoping to get a reasonable work boat finish like with housepaint, but the 10 or so year service life of the awlgrip.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Old 27-02-2012, 10:54   #1015
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[QUOTE=kaimusailing;894884]--- It is hard to find a yard that can haul a boat with this beam ---- QUOTE]

Jayne's Marine
Reedville,Va.

They specialize in multihulls.
Hauled my 26' boa Cross tri easily. They use a purpose designed trailer.
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Old 27-02-2012, 13:08   #1016
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
There is a big time project SR 40 for sale in Jacksonville, FL. Have not seen it myself, but would happy to evaluate it for someone, check Jacksonville craigslist.

Mark: did you paint that door with the blue epoxy? How many coats needed for good coverage. I to have tried the epoxy pigments and never had good results. The article in Epoxyworks on the Gougeons new cat last fall showed a picture of the interior that was supposed done with white pigments West System that looks like white LP hard to imagine it really was.

How has the blue held up to UV and chalking, etc. I really want to use some type of industrial bridge paint type product on my hulls as opposed to Awlgrip or the other direction housepaint. Hoping to get a reasonable work boat finish like with housepaint, but the 10 or so year service life of the awlgrip.

Cheers,
Jeff

Hi Jeff,
I have used large amounts of pigment, in a minimum of 4 coats of West resin, and achieved a totally opaque finish. (photos)... "ama", "refrigerator", holding tank from hull".

In all cases, I used it for "interior" surfaces only, out of the sun. Pure Epoxy resin, even with pigment, gets really chalky in a couple of years, if left in the Sun. Then it gets brittle and fails!

I would not do this epoxy with pigment to the entire interior of the boat. (Too thick & heavy) I would start with a well epoxied interior, like 3 coats on, sand, then 3 more & sand again. These 5 or 6 thin coats applied, will be more like 3 in the end, but smooth & consistent in mills. Then paint the inside with Bar Rust. (2 or 3 thinned coats)

It is much better to do the epoxy coating of the boat's interior, to the "parts" instead... Stringers, frames, and sheets of ply, BEFORE you build a boat out of them. With assembly line, mass production techniques, (I used 3 @ 60' long table frames), it goes REALLY fast.

Then when you build the boat with prepared parts, that were sanded on a table rather than on your knees, you only have to coat edges, holes, & cuts inside, and glass the outside.

By fairing the hull (most of the way) before glassing, you avoid sanding into your super thin glass job in the fairing process.

So... I would paint "inside", after epoxying as described, with Bar Rust, or similar. It is half way between a "paint", and 100% solids epoxy. It covers and handles like paint, which pigmented clear epoxy definitely does not!

The blue door and grey frame are 4 coats of Bar Rust, after a 2 part Bar Rust primer, over bare wood. It has been 3 years now, outside, and starting to chalk a bit, but totally sound. It IS, however, under a breezway! I wouldn't use ANY epoxy paint in outside, direct sunlight applications, like a hull & deck.

I DEFINITELY would avoid latex house paint as well! It is very hard to sand later for repainting, and gets no chemical bond with itself.

For longevity WITH a satin gloss, (But not really "workboat")... You can use a 2 part LP paint, with 1 part flattening paste, to 2 parts base. I love the more businesslike look, and it gets about 10 years between repaints.

This is what I used on my previous, SC 28, and loved the look. (photo) It does, however, require spraying, and is even more expensive!

Everything has an up front price. For me, I chose to pay it when I had a perfect boatbuilding set up, and moneymaking potential. Others choose to pay it piecemeal over many years. They have 3 times as many repaints, in third world circumstances, paying at least as much over 20 years.

A lot of it comes down to: How much can a person suffer through at one time?

I suggest a 2 part LP for longevity...

Best of luck with it,
M.
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Old 27-02-2012, 18:57   #1017
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Amen.
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Old 28-02-2012, 03:05   #1018
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It is this coming June i hope to head to Tonga Fiji and returning to NZ later in the year. This is my second attempt in my SR 37. 4 years ago it all went to custard with Storms and gales and with loosing my motor i returned to NZ . Now a new yanmar 30 hp gives me some piece of mind. I never got to use my sea anchore off the bow or the droghue off the stern. But shall have them both ready again this time round. Any Searunners owners have any comments on either of these storm tactics.
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Old 28-02-2012, 06:29   #1019
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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It is this coming June i hope to head to Tonga Fiji and returning to NZ later in the year. This is my second attempt in my SR 37. 4 years ago it all went to custard with Storms and gales and with loosing my motor i returned to NZ . Now a new yanmar 30 hp gives me some piece of mind. I never got to use my sea anchore off the bow or the droghue off the stern. But shall have them both ready again this time round. Any Searunners owners have any comments on either of these storm tactics.

I have always carried both, including a float, trip line, and 500' X 1/2" double braid rode. I have never needed them, but will continue to carry them, just in case!

I HAVE, however, thought about it a LOT, as well as spent many an hour in lively conversation, with those who have a valid opinion.

The thing about Searunners with their board raised, and having their large skeg / rudder in the stern, is that if thrown backwards at speed, the boat wants to slew around sideways, possibly breaking their vulnerable front hinged rudders.

In the case of a parachute off of the bow, on a 500' rode, in hurricane winds, the loads are ASTRONOMICAL! It requires such strong hardware, with "0" chafe, and my 1/2" rode should really be 5/8". (too heavy!) ALSO... when hit by a huge wave, and the line stretches 75', the boat WILL be thrown backwards, with bad results.

ON SEARUNNERS... I would use this tactic only when you have been beating to your destination, don't want to loose ground, and the conditions worsen to no worse than 40 or 50 knots of wind and 20' seas... when it's not as much life threatening, as "you need a break" to wait it out. Of coarse, once set up, you're committed! Catch 22...

In worse conditions, it seems that a drogue off of the stern is preferable, IF the blow is predicted to be no longer than one can stay at the helm! (The Jordan drogue has more advantages here than I can go into now, but we just carry a Gale Rider).

If one determines that it will be a longer blow than that, a parachute off of a STERN bridle might be a way to survive. The waves crashing into sterns might not be so bad, considering that the boat would track straighter and NOT be going backwards. I think that the loads on the rudder would be less.

A third tactic, that was related to me by a friend, Searunner 40 builder, circumnavigatior, and brilliant seaman, Jeff Allen, Is to run off at speed, SURFING, with nothing out! Jeff has been in 60' waves, even in a hurricane, and by sailing 45 degrees down the wave, going to 90 at the trough, etc (like slalom skiing), He survived. It requires that the helmsman stay at it and alert for days and nights of it, without a moment's inattention! I personally couldn't do this for days, but Jeff can and has, more than once. He says that in a sphincter factor of "10", YOU'LL STAY AWAKE! He swears that in the life threatening **** he's been in, no other tactic would have worked.

In my case, after 24 hours of standing at the helm, surfing, I would be knackered! I think I would fall back on a Jordan drogue, if I had the option.

The best safety device, BTW, is a really good radio, and perhaps even pay for a weather routing service. The one time I did this, (Chris Parker), I was amazed how he could zig zag me around every front for the 8 days from PR to the Beaufort NC inlet, during H season. Of coarse, for ocean crossing, and larger storm systems, this becomes less than ideal. Careful avoidance still is #1 in my book!

Have a safe trip...
M.
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Old 28-02-2012, 09:30   #1020
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I have never known a better vessel to surf than a Searunner 40. Jeff Allen was my mentor when I was a grasshopper. It was he who convinced me of the folly of building a "roomeran", such as a big Cross or (heaven forbid) a Horstmann. One long night (as told long ago in Multihull Magazine: "A Nightmare Off Point Loma") I learned just how well a light boat with superb steering qualities can rescue you from stupid decisions.

I am hoping to follow the lead of the Dashews, authors of MARINER'S WEATHER, and avoid bad weather by going fast and knowing how to read the 500 millibar maps off the internet. That assumes I have good comms and better judgement than I've had in the past.

Of course, nothing helps when you are caught away from the boat and the terminal storm takes your boat untended. That was how Jeff lost his Searunner, DINK'S SONG. But that's a story that should be told on a dark night with darker rum, and the wind whistling in the rigging. It brings shivers just thinking about it.
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