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Old 25-12-2010, 16:12   #676
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Transporting an A-frame Searunner

As work on my 31 "Pineapple Express" approaches completion I have been sorting through photos, and thought that an album of how we disassembled and transported the boat by truck from CA to WA might be useful for others.
Here's an album, here are the same photos posted to the Searunner group, and there are a couple of highlights attached.

If anyone needs the cradle or more info, contact me privately.

Will S.
OlyWA
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Old 28-12-2010, 14:31   #677
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Great transport job Will! Very professional indeed. My first two boats were also "demountable" and it has several advantages for the home builder, as well as the owner transporting to a new home base.

One of the most obvious advantages for a builder, is that building a boat is usually done by guys on a budget. The cheeper long term building sites, where they will let you build a temporary shelter, and make noise for years, (perhaps while living in a camper trailer), tend to be in the country... well away from the coast.

Monohulls don't have a problem here, but for multihulls...

Wharrams, Seaclippers, And A-frame Searunners come to mind, but I know that their are others.

Mark
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Old 30-12-2010, 08:39   #678
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Does anybody here know ANYTHING about this trimaran?

1987 Lock Crowther Factory Built - Trades considered! Trimaran Sail Boat For
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Old 30-12-2010, 08:48   #679
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Wow great looking price on that Tri. That is crazy low. Makes me wonder why? I see she was run aground in 2001, but reportedly repaired and hitting 18.5 knots.
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Old 30-12-2010, 10:11   #680
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SOLARBRI,

I don't know the boat, but used to follow Crowther's work. He was a VERY good designer, on the racing end of the spectrum.

This is a mighty slick looking boat! If one wants a racer/cruiser VS a cruiser/ liveaboard, it might be just the ticket. I can't tell if it is from his "dabbling with low buoyancy ama days", but if sailed with reserve, and not crossing oceans, that is not an issue.

It appears that it needs an exterior paint job... With LPs, that could run over $15,000, but at this price, it's still worth it... (assuming what is on there is 100% well bonded, and a two part paint). Living with one part paint on the exterior would be a deal breaker for me.

After checking out these issues... I wouldn't necessarily assume that the low price means that there must be something wrong. The market value for essentially a race boat, is quite low once it is old enough to no longer win races. Some of the best bargains are in this sort of boat.

With a good sound paint job, this looks like a boat one could love. It's beautiful!
Get down there and take a look!

Mark
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Old 30-12-2010, 13:26   #681
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the ad says "cold molded fiberglass", but the pics clearly show a fiberglass-over-plywood boat.

...maybe I'm just confused about what "cold molded" means?
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Old 30-12-2010, 14:36   #682
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Drew,
The fiberglass designation is misleading. Although my Searunner is a wood/epoxy composite, there is no such designation on my documentation, where it says "check one".

Metal...

Wood...

Fiberglass...

The federal documentation, and I believe state reistration's instructions, state that: "wood covered with fiberglass, is to be checked as fiberglass". It is a classic case of simplicity over accuracy.

Cold molded wood core boat construction is where one in effect, makes curved plywood. It can be molded over the boat's stringers like the boat in the web page, layed up over a sacrificial "plug", which resembles the finished hull, or in the case of CC boat construction... it can be molded (= vacuum bagged) over a male mold that is shaped like a HUGE doughnut... almost a cylinder.

It gives sexy rounded shapes. Horstmans, Newicks, later version Crosses, and pretty much all of the older... slick racey tris and cats are cold molded.

To lay up a cold molded hull or CC panel, you lay numerous strips of 6" or 8" wide, thin veniers of wood, or even 1/8" thick ply. It is stapled down to the stringers or plug, from the front to the back of the hull or panel. Now smear this outer surface with thickened epoxy, and then add another layer of veniers from back to front. This layer is at the opposite diagional. Then repeat the above untill you have the desired thickness. These days, one would vacuum bag the entire hull side once it is layed up, but in the old days, thousands of staples with pads underneith would have to do. After setup, they would all be pulled.

Cold molding was very labor intensive. The alternative, still using wood, was hard chine plywood, which was easier to build, but not a great shape. Then Jim Brown refined hard chine plywood with multi chine shapes. These approxamated the superrior rounded shapes, but had the advantage that the bottom of a Searunner hull can be 3/4", then the hull sides go to 1/2", and finally, the topsides go to 3'8" thick. To make the difficult to shape, constantly twisting, "chine log", or stringer at the ply junction, no longer a problem, he eliminated it. Instead, Searunners have a stringer just above and just below this critical ply wood junction. The joint can now be sanded to a nice round and glassed on both sides.

So... a Searunner hull is almost as slick as a cold molded one, but much easier to build, and the strength / puncture resistance is best where we need it most, on the bottom.

Then when CC panels and "stitch n glue" construction came out... it all changed again. They were even better shapes, eliminated stringers, and were even easier to build. The example I like most is John Marples CC designs.

So there ya go... That is the poop on cold molding etc.

Mark
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Old 30-12-2010, 18:05   #683
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Nice description of cold molding Mark, pretty much on the money except for the reference to "cold molded wood core boat construction" as it would only qualify as a "core" if it were to be sandwiched between inner and outer skins of structural glass which is rarely if ever the case with cold molding. Cold molding pretty much became obsolete when Jim Young in New Zealand pioneered the strip planked composite method as we know it today, which is still very popular for one off multihulls using WRC, Paulownia or foam strips. I think that Jim Browns innovation of eliminating the chine log altogether in favor of a composite chine on the Searunners was brilliant,its suprising it isnt used by others.
Steve.
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Old 30-12-2010, 20:21   #684
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Steve,

I'm not sure what you mean? When I say "core", in this case, obviously I don't mean in the context of "foam or balsa core" with glass skins providing the rigidity and the core being only a spacer... but in the case of a wood / epoxy composite boat like ours. Much strength is derived by the ply being sandwiched between epoxy coatings on the inside and glass sheathing on the outside. (It increases the stiffness of the ply)... Admittedly, the wood itself provides most of the strength in Searunners, except at the chines and joints. Here, wood core is more appropriate, as 100% of the strength at the chine joint, would be lost without the glass skins inside and out. In fact you could also call it a "fiberglass chine joint", once you have ground completely through the ply in the rounding process. It is all semantics, and this application is neither conventional ply construction, nor foam / balsa core, etc. It is unique.

Our boat is all glued together, and in many areas, wood piece A doesn't touch wood piece B. The wood is a spacer along with "Micro lite" and other fillers, and the glass skins do provide the strength. These joints only differ from traditional "core" joints, in that the ratio of skin strength to core strength is different. Our composite core is more dense and provide substantial strength, but still is totally reliant on the glass.

I was trying to explain to Drew what Cold Molding is. We were talking about techniques of building hulls that were popular 30 years ago. I don't know how popular it is now. I'd think that foam core has made most wood construction less popular, except for home built multihulls like mine.

As I was saying... Constant Camber designs like John Marples, have made plywood on frame construction obsolete. (even the hybrid Searunner version). They are cold molded hull halves and deck that are stitched & glued together. In this application, cold molding hull shapes is indeed alive and well.


Mark
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Old 30-12-2010, 20:37   #685
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"Cold molded" is one of those terms that has gotten kind of loose and sloppy in application over the years. Constant Camber boats are cold molded. Most Glen-L boats are cold-molded. hell, Mirror dinghies and Puddle Duck racers are cold molded. Stitch and glue construction is cold molding. if it isn't clinch nailed and caulked and framed on 24" centers and requires pumps for the first 48 hours before she takes up, she is cold molded.
If the hull is formed over frames, but the frames do not provide the shape and stiffness, the glass/ply matrix does, then the boat is cold molded. if the boat requires baking, then the boat is hot molded.

http://www.anything-sailing.com/show...ed-Wood-Veneer
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Old 31-12-2010, 07:10   #686
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It is all semantics... Many boats are neither this nor that, so in describing them, the context has to be considered. I was only shooting for a short description, not highly detailed historical accuracy. Drew is new to this boat bidness, and was just asking a casual question out of curiosity. Mia Culpa to all...

On my boat for example, we used many technologies to create light weight composite panels. It would mostly be a "multichine wood epoxy composite". However further accuracy would make it part "cold Molded" or "vacuum bagged cored composite panels", (Verticell cardboard, Kledgacell, Divinacell, and wood strip)... connected with "stitch N glue", using "liquid joinery". In areas it would be all "Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic", and in others "Carbon Reinforced Plastic"... OR
"Fiberglass and Carbon Reinforced Wood/epoxy composite joints". On and on...

In any post, look at the context. I also typo-ed that my 3/8" topsides were 3'8" thick. NOW THAT's some thick plywood! Then there is my spelling...

Mia Culpa Mia Culpa, Mia Maxima Culpa... (I probably spelled that wrong too!)

Mark

BTW... I definetly do not agree with you that a no stringer / frameless, stitch N glue, hard chine, dinghy... that is slightly tortured and stitched together, then glued with "liquid Joinery"... Would be called "cold molded". It may have been a cold process, (no external heat needed), but it is not "molded" at all. The shape comes from bending and slightly twisting the plywood. True cold molding can create rounded shapes that are a portion of a "sphere" or a "doughnut", where as the above flat panel ply dinghy can only have shapes that approximate the shape of a "cone". Cold molding is layers of wood that are layed up over a frame, stringers, or mold, and after removal from the above, they retain their shape by virtue of being layed up in multiple layers and glued together. (like plywood, but not flat)
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Old 31-12-2010, 08:20   #687
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Mark, with cold molded boats the wood is NOT a core in any way shape or form which is all i was trying to point out, let me make it clear, a cored structure uses STRUCTURAL SKINS (not necesarily glass) on both sides of the core which cold molded boats do not,the glass which is on the outside only in cold molded construction is not factored in as a structural component and is only there to provide a tough waterproof membrane and to give a nice stable base for your paint system. Epoxy sealing the inside of a cold molded or plywood boat does not make it into a cored structure. Now if you want you can call them composite construction which just means the structure is made from several different materials,the original composite boats were plank over metal frames and now extends to wood/epoxy, foam/glass etc etc. I am well aware of the construction of the Searunners which, apart from the composite chine is just standard ply on frame construction which has been around for eons,it is an excellent construction method made better by Jim Browns innovative chine. I did fairly major repairs a year ago to a Searunner 25 that had dragged its mooring and smashed one ama against a commercial dock,it was 28yrs old and was in excellent condition and was not even glassed apart from the chines.
Constant camber IS cold molded,single layer plywood boats like the Mirror dinghies, PD racers and stitch and glue boats ARE NOT.
I have seen many boats for sale where they list the construction as fiberglass when in fact they are glass over ply, wtf, are they ashamed of the mathod or just plain ignorant.
If you look at trademe.com,the New Zealand auction site you will see glass over ply boats refered to as GOP construction, makes good sense.
Sorry Mark, if you had just left out that core reference..... as a guy who built many cold molded boats as an apprentice back in the day i just didnt want Drew getting that little snippet of wrong info, i didnt mean for it to turn into a pissing contest.
Steve.
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Old 31-12-2010, 08:49   #688
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Got a link to a guy who rigged his boat in Dynex Dux. The online version has no pics, but the magazine version does!

Ocean Navigator | The magazine for long-distance offshore sailing and power voyaging

Ocean Navigator magazine.
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:54   #689
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I can only assume that you guys are not really reading what I said. I clearly pointed out from the get go that I had used a poor choice of words in earlier references to "cored", in that one sentience only. My point however was correct.

First off... Some Searunners HAVE been built from all cored composites. My friends Tusitalia was, 100%. It had rounded hulls and I worked next to it for a year.

The rounded amas on the well known Searunner 40 Chak, were either foam core or cold molded into that shape.

I never said that MOST old Searunners were ANYTHING BUT ply on frame with a glass chine log. Some are only that... other later ones, are built in the WEST system, which the Gougeon Brothers coined "wood epoxy composite" construction. They have ever since, been called exactly that. The epoxy on the inside and glass on the outside do not make it cored hulls, (only like cored hulls in this ONE respect). I only used this phrase to explain that, just a bit, it leans that way.

The Gougeon brothers proved this with countless experiments. (Read their book).They showed how a thin strip of 1/4" ply would bend X amount under a given weight. Then after applying thin glass on the outside, and 4 coats of epoxy on the inside... and with the same amount of weight applied to the end of the strip, the thin wood would only bend HALF as much. It was the "I beam" principal, just like cored construction. I do NOT think it is therefore proper to call it, "cored" construction. I was just making a point. As before Mia Culpa...

It is, IF it's WEST system, a conventional plank on frame, multichine, wood/epoxy composite, with glass chines. This is all that I said a standard Searunner is. I don't understand the confusion... This does not discount the ones mentioned above, which really WERE of a different construction. (all or in part)

My Searunner is all of the things that I said it is. For example in the previous photos of my dodger... The wooden "canvas attachment strip" on top, is bent in two directions. This was done by cutting a sheet of 1/4" ply into four 1' wide strips lengthwise. These were layed up over the mold that I'd built the roof of the dodger on. I glued them all up and vacuumed them down. This bent plank was then a perfect match for the roof it would be glued to. Now I cut the fore and aft arc with a saber saw and rounded it. It took a week to make that curved, 2" X 2" X 7' long strip...

This IS "cold molding".

The front of the dodger is a French curve. It was layers of ply, glued up over a different mold and vacuumed down.

It is also "cold molded".

The roof is vacuum bagged Kledgacell "foam core", with thin wood veneerer for skins.

The doubler at the mast notch is "Verticell core" with wood veneerer for skins. Etc.

I "Stitch N Glued" the parts, using "Liquid Joinery", applied 6" radius's "microlite" fillets inside, and ground the outside to match. Then I glassed the works.

This is why, before the lexan was installed, the dodger weighed < 35#s, yet two people can jump up and down on it! It took about 1,500 hours.

ALL of my boats interior flat panels are also "foam core" or "cardboard core", with VERY thin wood veneers for skins, and "microlite" filler on the edges. (ALL of the floor boards, cubby lids, engine box, refrigerator, etc.

I have carbon reinforcement in dozens of places, and in some pieces, like the bow platform, it is all or 90% carbon. In other areas I have built pieces that are 100% Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic, which I molded in my shop.

With the rig and hardware considered too, the structure is still at least 50 or 60% wood by weight. (I don't really know). However regarding OUR Searunner, it utilizes many materials and boatbuilding techniques. Probably more variety than any other out there.

Having said that, unlike Tusitallia, which I'd call "foam core", or Chak's amas which are either "foam core" or "cold molded"...

I would still say that Delphys is a slightly hybrid version of a "ply on frame, multi chine, wood/epoxy composite boat". This is mostly what it is.

I never felt that the fact that it might be 10 or 15% this or 20% that construction, would justify my identifying it as something that it really is, but in such a small amount. Like I said earlier, I really don't understand reading into my comments, anything different from what I've just said.

Enough already... Mark
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:40   #690
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Mark, sorry i apparently ruffled your feathers, christ man, i was only correcting that one reference to cold molded wood "core" boat construction so that Drew wouldnt take away the impression that cold molding (in its common forms) in any way involves a core (although we have a 40ft Wylie at the shop which is cold molded with a klegecell core, 2 layers of fir inside, 2 layers meranti out) Ok,Nuff said.
I have enjoyed reading this thread and have got to compliment you and Jack as having fine examples of a great design,you guys do some nice work.
Steve.
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