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Old 05-01-2010, 19:54   #466
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Searunner Ventilation

I haven't read the whole thread so don't know if the following article has been suggested. Sorry if it's a duplicate but it would seem to address your concerns.

VentSystem1

Of course, the next option is to move your boat south as we plan to do next year (oops this year). Good luck.

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Old 05-01-2010, 20:07   #467
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How the HECK did you find that?! I did as much searching as I could and came up empty handed. GREAT FIND!!!....:-)
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Old 05-01-2010, 20:29   #468
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Originally Posted by PatnKarl View Post
Of course, the next option is to move your boat south as we plan to do next year (oops this year). Good luck.
This is indeed the plan, but I doubt I'll be anywhere warmer than California before 2011.. we'll see how the wind blows.
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Old 05-01-2010, 20:30   #469
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It's a link from the Searunner Owners List - under Rattle and Hum.

Owners_List

Good reading.
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Old 08-01-2010, 13:18   #470
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a small introduction

Hello fellow water lovers,

Let me take up a small amount of your time by introducing myself. I'm Hylco and I recently got a half build Searunner 25 for free. By halfbuild I mean that we go a hull and two ama's which have been build over the last 30 odd years. Two friends started building one boat each, roughly by the time I was born. After fifteen years they decided that finishing one would be the best way foreward, and fifteen years later they decided just to buy a larger trimaran. This is where I come in......

As a naval architect, these two friends thought that I might be interested and I was indeed crazy enough to pick up their work. The general idea is to get the ship in the water coming summer, not finished, but ready for day sailing on one of the very large estuaries we have in the Netherlands. So far I've made half of the A-frames (from stainless steel, as the correct Aluminium was not available, except per ton), put in the mast foot and the mountings for the stays. A large part of the steering gear is finisched and the rudder and centerboard are also done.

Coming month a sailmaker (who already has my mast) is making the sails, for which I do need your help: Does anyone have a large scale Searunner logo? I only have half of the drawings, so I'm not even sure if there was a version.

I'm also wondering if anyone has figured out what the best place for a small toilet is in a 25. Especially considering that the law here requires a inboard brown water tank (I was thinking next to the centreboard).

As for me, I'm a Quality Assurance Manager with a leading firm in rudders, stearing gear and other interesting manoeuvring systems for inland vessels, larger sea going vessels and mega yachts. My background is in Naval Architecture (engineer) and Business Administrations (MSc BA). I'm doing this project together with my girlfriend and two dogs (they keep re-aranging everything I lay down for more then two seconds).

If anyone has any good tips for a builder in this stadium I'm always ever so gratefull.
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:09   #471
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Drew,
Some thoughts on the condensation issue... We lived on our SR 34 for 12 years before moving off of it into a rental house, almost 2 years ago. (We woke up with our bed sheets frozen to the wall!) For the years that we lived in the Fl Keys, or were cruising the Caribbean, it was not an issue. The last time we returned to the States, (out of money), we opted to settle in NC, as we couldn't "do" Fl any more. WOW! what a condensation problem in the winter here.
The winters get into the teens here, and several electric heaters were necessary. We have a nifty cockpit enclosure, that makes it into a 3rd cabin. It helps to leave the companionway flaps OPEN, and heat or cool the entire boat as a single space, incl. the cockpit. (we have a window AC unit, that does not go cruising, in the aft center cockpit enclosure curtain, for summer) The "one space" idea was an improvement, but would,ve been better if our enclosure were not 100% vapor proof.
Instead of regular Sunbrella, we used "C Mark" coated Sunbrella. When we make this over, we will use regular breathable Sunbrella, and have some alternate curtains that are Sunbrella, rather than clear plastic. (which doesn't pass water vapor)
The condensation problem is common to all boats to a degree, but uninsulated single skin boats are the worst. Worse yet are the older custom boats like ours, that have stringers that are not in the horizontal plane, but point up a bit, so they trap water, mildew, & peel paint. (in the SEACLIPPER boats they fixed this, with stringers that have horizontal top edges) Searunners are so compartmentalized... which further cuts down on ventilation, AND, no insulation. It is a worst case for condensation! These really are great tropical cruisers.
John Marples did not want me to insulate the ceiling on "Delphys", because of the weight, & covering up fastenings that one wants to keep an eye on. He suggested a large deck tent instead. (assuming tropical cruising) This works for that, but is seldom used, unless I am staying put a while. Having said that, I still agree with John, not to insulate Searunners ceilings... EXCEPT the 40'er. It can handle the weight, & IF it is well WESTed, should be OK. The thing is, that the insulated ceiling will do little to change the condensation in a cold winter. (would be great in Summer) The worst areas for condensation, are the bilge, and areas that are not ventilated.
By running an extra umbilical to the boat, we were sucessful in keeping 5 heaters going on Med. This spread the heat out, and kept us toasty, down to outside temps in the upper 30s. We showered on shore at the Marina head, and kept all wet stuff of of the boat. Towels, wet garbage etc, all evaporate, only to condense on the surfaces down below. Our Levac head, (best head made), has a gasketed lid, that allows us to keep that moisture issolated. The real problem is the HUGE amount of moisture that we expire when we breath!
We dehumidify the boat the best we can, with a "golden Rod" in the eng comp., 2 "turbo blowers", A "Mermaid" SS boat dehumidifyer, 2 fans, and about 20 "Damp Rid" dessicant cups in the cubbys & bilge. When we were living aboard, this cut the condensation in half or so. Now that we are on shore, it is almost gone. When we are off of the boat, we keep most cubby doars open for ventilation too.
ALL of this dehumidifying the air, was terrible for our skin (exema), and sinuses. The best move is to go SOUTH! If that is not practical now, all of the above will work, if your health can take it... Hope this helps,
Mark
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Old 09-01-2010, 07:43   #472
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Shots or our enclosure..
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Old 10-01-2010, 07:31   #473
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Hylco,
Regarding your questions about the 25er... First off, the shocker. REALLY major renovatoins / completions, MAY be less $, but can be FAR more work than building from scratch. In my 40 years as a boat builder, I have done both, and found building from scratch to be far more satisfying. Not to discourage you, just be prepaired!
You need to keep the project covered & out of the weather. (I built a HUGE "quanset hut" structure out of sheet plastic & PVC pipe for my last project, that lasted 6 years, and the tent cost < $1,000 over the duration) Forget trying too hard to save $, IF you want a nice boat. There are a LOT of boats out there for day sailers, for < $5,000 US, If you are on a limited budget.
Those SS A frame connectives are OK, only if they didn't add too much weight over the designed Aluminum ones. (John Marples question) I suggest that you get a copy of the Searunners Construction Manuel. (there are a few folks out there that have old copies that they will sell you)
I also suggest that you establish a relationship with John Marples, (co designer / partner of Jim Brown), as you will need his help. He charges for his time, as this is his livelihood, but if you buy a set of plans from him, (which you also need), he will graciously offer extensive phone advice throughout your project.
The "Sail Logo" should be easy for a sail maker to get off of the WEB. (another thing John Marples can help with) Searunnertrimariner.com perhaps. This could be blown up & machine cut out in vynil, by someone with the right equipment. My sail maker did...
About the "head"... The only location that works, is the one drawn, just forward of the vanity compartment in the bow area. This is not great for putting in a holding tank, as it is small. You could go one station aft for the tank? (these were drawn before "holding tanks".) To solve this, in the drawn location, I put 2" radius fillets of "microlight" above & below the stringers beneath the sole. Then I epoxy glassed the sides over these now rounded stringers, as well as the end walls. (2 layers of 10 oz glass fabric) Then I made similar but vertical fillets in the corners, and sanded the entire interrior very smooth. Finally I coated this "TANK" with 8 coats of white pigmented epoxy. After this, I made the lid out of glassed ply with a pedistal in the middle for the head. I added a baffle in the middle of the lid, that did not extend to the tank walls. (to minimize sloshing) I epoxied this pre completed lid / floor onto the prepaired horizontal stringer tops at sole level. This made a nice 30 gal holding tank out of the hull itself! (I ran TWO vent hoses to the lid & then overboard) I started out with a NICE ceramic bowl RV head, that dropped DIRECTLY into the holding tank. This absolutely minimized flushing water. I later found that the concentration of "solids" from this system, combined with the tank being open during flushing, would RUN YOU OUT of the boat. What can I say... seemed like a good idea at the time! Then I put an electric "turbo blower", in the vacuum possition, into the vent hose. This created negative air pressure in the tank, (only on when flushing). It made the tank "inhale" when flushing, and totally solved the smell problem below. The thing is, the vent blower made the tank EXHALE to the rest of the marina. It was NOT a socially exceptable solution!
I covered the flush hole in the tank lid's pedistal, & changed out the head with an English "LEVAC". It is the best head made! (IMO) It has no moving parts except a robust hand diaphram bilge pump mounted on the wall, next to the Head. In 10 years I have replaced the diaphram ONCE. This new, but conventional head, also flushed directly down into the holding tank that it was mounted to, but the water trap sealed off the smells. (there is a Y valve to choose "overboard" where appropriate, for the head, as well as the holding tank. This is a LOW flush water solution, which is what you need. If you put a larger tank, further away, it requires more flushing water, so defeats the purpose of the larger tank. (even with our solution, it is only good for 1 week, for 2 people.)
As far as "brown water"... First off, we shower in the cockpit, with a black plastic "garden sprayer" that we first warm in the Sun. This runs overboard. Surely this would be tolerated there ??? The shower down below Idea, only works when it is warm & the hatches are all open, to evaporate the water. This is when you would just assume shower in the cockpit! As far as the runnoff from the 2 sinks, this is 95% liquid, so a long gravity run to a small central tank should be fine. Next to the CB trunk? Then a "Y valve" to select overboard or pumpout, and a "Gulper" diaphram pump.. It would seem that finely straining the contents would be good enough, if you use a biodegradeable soap ??? These solutions work, but will be a challenge in any Searunner, ESPECIALLY the 25, due to complication & payload, and the frames to cut through etc. If you need to cut a 1 3/4" hole through the frame next to the hull for example, you need to sister up that area for a bit, to replace the strength lost from cutting the hole.
If you do contact John Marples, please be aware that just like Jim Brown before him, hundreds of clients have "used him up" over the years, with countless questions, and not offering him compensation. Please remember that this guy is a brilliant engineer / designer, the best in the World at answering many of these questions, and like myself... He is trying to make a living in the marine business. (please, buy the plans, or offer compensation) It is money well spent.
BTW, We buddy boated for thousands of miles with a Dutch woman & her husband. She regularly treated us with "Boterkoek". GREAT STUFF... but made me fat. Hope this helps, Mark
P.S. With a small 25'er... Lay off of the BOTERKOEK!
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:23   #474
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Searunner ventilation

There's a good article by Bob Wilson about ventilating a 37 on Searunner.org: Searunner.org :: Articles by Bob Wilson
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:26   #475
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Head placement on a Searunner 25

I fitted a small RV portable toilet under the bunk in the forward cabin on a plywood platform with some strong retaining clips. I can post pictures if you like. It's under the break of the deck and faces aft, so I get the full headroom of the forward cabin. This keeps the thing out of the way as designed, but it's not easy to get to and moves around a lot - the 25 is light and can be very bouncy in chop. Make sure to empty whenever you go ashore.

You can alternatively fit a head in the aft cabin, just aft of the main strength bulkhead, under (or in place of) the bunk. No standing up back there, but it is a wider and more comfortable area than the bow.

In either case, if you must have a holding tank I would support putting it beside the centerboard trunk, low and in the middle. Even a small amount of weight in the bow or stern will change the waterline and trim on a 25. For example, the rudder frame and pin on my 25 are usually just out of the water when at the dock; last year I left about 75lbs of tools in the aft cabin, and after a few weeks found that the rudder bracket was growing mussels and weed from sitting in (rather than just out of) the water.
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Old 11-01-2010, 20:36   #476
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RE: Condensation and diesel heaters

I recall reading somewhere a few decades back that a liquid-fuel heater will cause condensation due to moisture in the fuel itself. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 12-01-2010, 00:48   #477
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I recall reading somewhere a few decades back that a liquid-fuel heater will cause condensation due to moisture in the fuel itself. Can anyone confirm?
Sounds odd to me. Fuels rarely have H2O in them. However, as soon as you burn them, the Carbon, Hydrogen bonding will brake and turn into CO2 and H2O, thus causing condensation. This is the same reason we emit such large quanitities of water when breathing. We also burn full, thus emit H2O and CO2.

Conclusion, if you have a burner, make sure the fumes ventilate outside as quickly as possible; it is only the heat you want inside.
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:36   #478
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Every lb of gas burnt - butane/propane - creates a lb of water. A small wood stove on board is a nice thing - sucks in air from the cabin for combustion, shoots it up the flue and out and keeps everything toasty whilst drying the interior. Pity about the weight on a tri - and space for one, but it's surprising how effective a small stove can be, say about a 1 cubic foot size or even slightly smaller.
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:28   #479
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More thoughts on heat in winter & condensation... Bob Wilsons article on the subject was great, but some of the ideas don't apply in our situation. We were trying to avoid outside air when it was at or below freezing, because even a small cool draft is uncomfortable. What works for limiting condensation when not on the boat, like openings between the frames in the bilge & MAJOR, even assisted, air movement, make it uncomfortable when living on the boat. The 34 has sealed air tight wings, broken up in numerous sections. In our case with an "O ring" deck plate for each. These are the ONLY place that NEVER got condensation, in any season or temperature. (you can't have condensation in a sealed space full of bone dry air, appariently) Having said that... Now that I think about it, our amas have vents for & aft with pvc elbow water traps like a "dorade box". We leave these open when not under way. I have never seen condensation in there, probobly because with that much air movement & 0 temperature differiential between the inside & outside, it is not like the rest of the cabin? This was why our attempt at extreem DE humidifying the living area, & ventilating the NON living area. The "dry air idea" worked well, but as I said, was unhealthy... In really cold weatrer, we only had open one Nicro solar vent in the head in exhaust, & one in the aft cabin in Intake. (except the Vetus electric ex vent over the stove, used only when using it, to exhaust that cooking moisture.) Back in warm weather... One of the things that was surprising about our dodger / connecting piece / bimini combination, is that when anchored out & facing the wind, there is a strong "venturi effect". AKA "station Wagon effect". We can leave the aft companionway flap opun, even in a light rain, but if there is wind, the airflow in the large aft opening port is IN! (due to negative air pressure in the aft cabin, from being sucked into the cockpit) So, Even with the aft port in the 3/4 open "awning possition", some rain could come in. In a strong wind, the curtains try to blow straight in. To solve this, we made a Sunbrella aft cabin brow extension, that attaches with bolt rope track at the top, snaps on the side triangles, & bunji on the back. It can be put in or out in about 45 seconds, and left up under way. The extra shade is nice too. It allows us to keep the aft port open, even in a gale. (when anchored out, & facing the wind) Some of the deal breakers for us about frigid boat living, was that my wife was coming home from her job at a hospital at 1:30 AM! She then walked more than 1/4 mile, in the dark, down an icy dock, & stepped onto an icy deck, etc. Even with an electric bed warmer all ready in her bunk, she woke with her sheets frozen to the walls, even though the heaters could keep the cabin air @ about 45 or 50 F. (even in the teens outside) She said: "this is NUTS". Actually I can't print what she REALLY said! Another issue was that our metered electricity was WAY up. Even in the hot summer & using the AC window unit, it averaged around 25 or 30 $$$. The multiple electric heaters were running it up to $160 or so! We heat the house we rent, for 1/3th the cost of heating the boat. If I had wanted to continue putting my body through it... to save money, I would have made a glassed furnace box, that sat on our stern castle overhead hatch, with a "plenum" that connected to the same enclosure curtain that our AC connects to in summer. (see photo) In this box I would mount a SMALL, used, camper LP furnace, with the WARM, OUTSIDE, pre DRIED air... into the back cabin & cockpit enclosure. The end bunk fans would pull the warm air to the front all day, And at night when we turn them off, I'd switch to just one electric heater for the front cabin. When I had a 35' X 45' X 18' tall tent structure over our project for 5 1/2 years, I heated it all winter with a $100 used mobile home furnace, that sat on it's own, outside, under the eaves of a barn, 100' away. (ran a 2' mylar flexable duct along the ground, sometimes covered with snow) With the the thermostat in the structure, I could heat the building all winter in any conditions. So, the above idea is not as rediculous as it sounds! If the winters where you are really moderate, (like lows at night of 50F), then lots of ventilation when you're off of the boat, combined with a couple of electric heaters, should work well enough, if dry air doesn't cause health issues. BTW... LP gas does give up moisture, but if LP heaters get their combustion air from the outside, & vent to the outside, the only additional condensation from this should be that you're warming up the inside of the boat.
Regarding the year round, "body moisture passing through the mattress" problem... Happened to us so much the first year, that the paint under the bunk all peeled off. After re painting, we switched to putting onto our 4" foam mattresses, a fitted, plastic backed, water proof, mattress cover. Over this we put a 1" waffle foam pad, and over this a standard fitted, quilted, breathable, mattress cover. This combination no longer crinkled with a plastic sound when you roll over, the lower 4" mattress never passed moisture, or got damp again, and the problem was solved. Yes, the upper layers get a bit clammy. They are easy to maintain. Every other time my wife washes the sheets, she washes the (upper / breathable, I think cotton) quilted mattress cover as well. In really sweatty seasons, we would put the 1" waffle foam out on the wings once in a while to let them air out, and replace them every few years. For the last few years, the waffle foam has been replaced with 2" "memory foam", and this REALLY helped our achs & pains... we keep it dry, and the bunks are comfortable. STAY WARM!
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Old 20-01-2010, 21:40   #480
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I just posted the pics of my new centerboard (Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Roy M's Album: WILDERNESS pictures - Centerboard).

Also, because no one has done it yet, I started a social group for SEARUNNER TRIMARANS in the photo album section. We need an avatar photo (JACK! Are you listening?). Send in your Searunner photos to share in this singleminded group.
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