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Old 16-04-2018, 07:35   #4156
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Tusitala View Post
all of those types of construction will wick moisture up to the glue joints. I prefer foam or cedar myself - they don't tend to rot. oddly, for some reason most of the plywood that I've seen dryrot didn't go soft at the edges where the incursion was but right in the center of the panel.
Many GOP boats done well with epoxy are still sound at 30+ years of age. "dry rot" which is a misnomer, is not a problem except where there is penetration, and even then if the penetration is done well it isn't a problem. This usually is in the deck area where there are winches and chain plates, and other fittings. It can be prevented by good design.
Cedar is a wonderful wood, extremely resistant to rot. Juniper is even more impressive in that respect. I've seen juniper fence posts locally that have been in the ground for close to a century and are still sound. The turned posts with the "green treat" are already rotting off, and the steel posts rust off...........

There is at least one penetrating cedar oil / silicone treat out there designed to stabilize and prevent rot. It would be well worth the effort of experimenting with adhesion of epoxy / glass over marine ply treated with something like this....if it has not been done before. It is probable that West Systems has tested some of these products. There are also thinned penetrating epoxies which can be used creatively when drilling to mount hardware. For example, putting a piece of tape on the bottom side of a hole and filling it with penetrating epoxy, and allowing it to wick into the surrounding wood and set up, then redrilling the hole..... or drilling just into the wood and not through the inside surface (if there is glass inside).
There is a significant issue of condensation in most boats, and a likelyhood that if the interior is not extremely well sealed , the moisture level of the wood can reach a level that rot can occur.
My personal experience is that efforts to keep moisture OUT often do a better job of keeping it IN. That suggests to me that keeping the interior surfaces dry and well ventilated is probably the most important thing you can do. Bob Wilson's excellent article on his venturi ventilation system on Rattle and Hum is well worth reading. Riding on a mooring in the wet PNW where condensation can be a real problem, this system seems to completely solve the problem, and it's something any of us could build....... Thanks Bob! VentSystem1

Here's a link to a company that sells a cedar oil preservative located in Texas: Cedar Oil Industries LLC: https://www.cedaroilstore.com/Articles.asp?ID=134

H.W.
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Old 16-04-2018, 09:05   #4157
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Owly, I was discussing epoxy construction. When dealing with sheet ply that has been damaged moisture can wick in all directions as far as the next sheet of ply. As I said, I was quite surprised to find the delam in almost the exact center of the sheet, not near the damage. a number of modern core materials such as divinylcell and contourcore come crosshatched with a scrim on one side. when all the cross hatching is filled with an epoxy/microspheres mix it effectively makes the size of your "sheet" smaller, with closer glue joints. unless of course you do a bad job. We built and launched 34 years ago. some sections and decks are sheet ply, others are constant camber.
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Old 16-04-2018, 15:23   #4158
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

There is another anti-mould anti-rot treatment that doesn't get much press - treating with disodium octoborate terahydrate (DOT).

According to Canadian forestry studies this prevents rot in pine posts buried in the ground, but I'm yet to see anyone who has used it on a boat.

One of the proprietary timber treatments that contains it is Timbor, widely available inthe US.

I was able to find an industrial supplier of it here in Oz, as its' used as a fungicide in the fruit tree and forestry industry.

Don't be confused by any other 'borax' or 'borate' product. It MUST contain disodium tetrahydrate octoborate or it won't work well enough.

Borax is often used by home gardeners to treat cut branches to prevent rot and is somewhat successful.

If anyone's interested PM me and I'll dig up the research I found on it.
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Old 20-04-2018, 11:29   #4159
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I will be looking at a Constant Camber 35 built of Cedar in 1998. The current owner is the son of the builder, and has removed the centerboard and trunk in favor of a 12" deep LAR keel. How difficult should it be to change back to the centerboard? I'd prefer to build the new trunk and board of something other than wood. Otherwise, the boat is supposedly in good shape, with fresh bottom paint and sails. Does anyone have firsthand experience with this design? What were your impressions?
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Old 20-04-2018, 12:09   #4160
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sweet! If it were me, Iíd sail it for awhile the way it is. You may find it sails just fine without the complications of a board.
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Old 20-04-2018, 16:03   #4161
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Seafarer24 View Post
I will be looking at a Constant Camber 35 built of Cedar in 1998. The current owner is the son of the builder, and has removed the centerboard and trunk in favor of a 12" deep LAR keel. How difficult should it be to change back to the centerboard? I'd prefer to build the new trunk and board of something other than wood. Otherwise, the boat is supposedly in good shape, with fresh bottom paint and sails. Does anyone have firsthand experience with this design? What were your impressions?

I would check with John Marples about the lack of a centerboard trunk. On the Searunners this is the structural heart of the boat, tying everything together. That may or many not be the case with the CC35, but I would suspect it was. There really is no more efficient material than plywood / epoxy to build this from in terms of cost, weight, strength, and ease of tying it into the structure. Don't complicate it for no reason.....
Ian Farrier pioneered the offset airfoil shaped centerboard that was more like a daggerboard that folds back. The narrow dagger profile is far more efficient at producing sideways lift, if the airfoil profile is well designed. It also takes up far less space when up, giving you a smaller lower trunk. This board was offset enough that it allowed walking space next to it in the cabin with the aft cockpit, and if I'm not mistaken it was beneath one of the bunks.
You will be starting with a clean slate obviously, and taking a page out of the "Farrier book" might be worth looking at, leaving you with more usable space.
Look at the Farrier F22 page.... F-22 Specifications you'll find a photo of the board both extended and retracted about 2/3 of the way down the page.

I'm not thrilled with the low forward coach roof on the 35..... but I haven't ever been in one. It appears from the photos that probably the only inside standing head room is in the galley...... I want a alive aboard voyaging boat, not a brief tripper / weekender / day sailor, so my demands are not the same as those of some others here.

Jim Brown, by the way speaks highly of the strength of the CC boats, and recently described the relative damage to one of these and a searunner, both of which got knocked off their blocks in the recent hurricane. I believe the CC sustained no damage.

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Old 20-04-2018, 16:31   #4162
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Many liveaboard voyaging boats that donít have full standing headroom, just a matter of ones priority.
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Old 20-04-2018, 17:29   #4163
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The centerboard will give you much more control of the boat and the shallower draft will be safer in breaking seas and inlets.
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Old 20-04-2018, 18:17   #4164
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Many liveaboard voyaging boats that donít have full standing headroom, just a matter of ones priority.
I would venture that most have standing head room in at least some areas. I was not suggesting that standing headroom throughout was a necessity........ and yes it IS a matter of priorities. When the weather is crappy out, it's rather nice to at least be able to stand upright in some spaces. In my own case, I've pretty much abandoned trimarans due to payload...... I need too large of a boat to carry a decent payload for long passages. Monomarans are out as far as I'm concerned, so I'm looking at small cats, and of course they only have standing headroom in the hulls, and often only in a small part of the hull. The typical bridge deck cabin in the boats I'm looking at is about a foot shorter than I am....... and I'm not tall. But like the stern castle on a Searunner, the bridge deck cabin is a sit down area only. I know of people who will not settle for a cat less than about 40' because of the fact that their priorities are for full standing head room everywhere. My target length is 30' and a beam of 18', with bridge deck well aft..... beginning at about 30+% , and tramps or netting forward.
We all have our priorities...... don't we?

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Old 30-04-2018, 10:06   #4165
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

This past Saturday (4/28/2018) I went and viewed the boat. There were some minor rot issues around the cockpit seat hatches that would have to be dealt with, but the main structure was in very nice condition!

I am 5'10" and had standing headroom throughout, with the exception of a single support beam that I might not touch without my flip-flops on. This was in the forward cabin right where the cabin top begins it's slope downward. The head is forward of this, but the sole drops down to maintain headroom there.

The centerboard trunk appears to have originally been right on the centerline, making the walkway in the forward cabin rather narrow. I'll have to ask John Marples about installing a new one offset to Port, under the edge of the double bunk over there. The seller still has the original set of plans to reference.

As for the electrical and plumbing systems... there are none! The "stove" is a simple burner screwed onto a camping bottom and dropped through a stainless steel plate. The "fridge" is a cooler under the cockpit, but the stairs have to be removed to access it.
After having to re-hab or replace failing systems on previous boats, a blank slate feels like half of the work is already done for me.

The entire boat was painted with white Tile-Clad epoxy paint. The interior is holding up great, but the exterior needs to be repainted with something more UV-resistant.

I really like the boat, but I am trying to figure out how I would manage to store two peoples belongings for living aboard and cruising. The older Searunners seemed to have storage everywhere, but this one... not so much. It would be fine if it were just me, but I'm not sure how minimalist my significant other is willing to get.
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Old 30-04-2018, 10:53   #4166
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Seafarer24 View Post
The entire boat was painted with white Tile-Clad epoxy paint. The interior is holding up great, but the exterior needs to be repainted with something more UV-resistant.
Someone told me just a couple weeks ago that the entire exterior of that boat was primer grey. Was it like that when you saw it or did they paint it white?

Since she is 20 years old have they replaced all the rigging yet?

I hope you will please keep us posted with updates.
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Old 30-04-2018, 10:59   #4167
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Seabeau View Post
The centerboard will give you much more control of the boat and the shallower draft will be safer in breaking seas and inlets.
True. At low speeds, like in a crowded harbor, you should have a lot more control with a deep centerboard than a low aspect ratio keel.
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Old 30-04-2018, 13:53   #4168
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I would need more photos to be sure but the tri looks like a weekend sailer to me. It just needs a fair bit of work to get her up to liveaboard status.

Some points in no particular order

The stove has to be improved. In fact the one you have is pretty dangerous as it can leak gas into the bilge. Tris are really good for installing safe gas systems on but this is a no-no straight off. I would like a two burner marine stove with grill and a gas line led outside to a bottle on deck. No gas bottles inside. Flame safety cut off stove - about $1500 for the whole shebang, gas has to be installed by licenced gas fitter.

Same with the toilet - camping stuff. I use a Lavac toilet as it never clogs but you need to replace the toilet with a model you like. This will mean some work with epoxy making a base for the thing and you should install a holding tank somewhere close. Even if you don't have access to shore pump outs it is always nice to hold onto your waste until you have left harbour and are sailing along fast offshore. So a gravity discharge tank with stopcock that can be wired shut would be on my list.

As for storage - it does look a little light. I guess it is an outboard boat because I can't see an engine but you should be able to do much better with the area under the cockpit. Also some of the cutouts on the stowage bins look a little too large and I wonder about the low lip on the bottom. Can you get under the floor? We can put huge amounts of stuff under our floors.

I also wonder about water tankage. I would like about 200 litres minimum installed. Does it have tanks?

There will be other stuff you need for cruising, deep cycle batteries, solar panels, second and third anchors, anchor winch, good bridle setup, dinghy retrieval system or deck pad, storm sails, sun covers, cockpit dodger. There is a lot of difference between a nice boat for a weekend and a full time cruiser. You should get on board a full time cruiser's tri of the same length and see what you would need to cruise full time. Then add this onto the cost of the boat and remember the time required to get her up to scratch.

I reckon it would take me about 3 months to get a simple tri (like I assume this is) to get her ready for cruising, in a boatyard with me working full time - 60-70 hour weeks (yep everyday from dawn to dusk). My wife would be working and I would be chewing the money up much quicker than she can make it. That is assuming I don't find any rot or have to repaint the whole boat. But the boat would be nice when it is finished and set up the way you like.

More photos and a spec sheet would make the decision easier.

cheers

Phil
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:15   #4169
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

MagentaWave- the exterior is white, and the paint does not look new. The owner said it had been painted about a year ago.

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Originally Posted by catsketcher View Post
I would need more photos to be sure but the tri looks like a weekend sailer to me. It just needs a fair bit of work to get her up to liveaboard status.
That is a fair assessment, but I see this as a positive thing. I'd get to install exactly the systems I want instead of settling for the previous owner's choices.

Quote:
The stove has to be improved. In fact the one you have is pretty dangerous as it can leak gas into the bilge. Tris are really good for installing safe gas systems on but this is a no-no straight off. I would like a two burner marine stove with grill and a gas line led outside to a bottle on deck. No gas bottles inside. Flame safety cut off stove - about $1500 for the whole shebang, gas has to be installed by licenced gas fitter.
More like $250 for a simple drop-in 2-burner with a brass shut-off valve by the stove and the line run to one of the wing lockers. Drill a couple vent holes in the bottom to vent and install a pair of horizontal tanks. Nothing has to be fitted by a professional- this isn't a commercial kitchen in a restaurant on land.

Quote:
Same with the toilet - camping stuff. I use a Lavac toilet as it never clogs but you need to replace the toilet with a model you like. This will mean some work with epoxy making a base for the thing and you should install a holding tank somewhere close. Even if you don't have access to shore pump outs it is always nice to hold onto your waste until you have left harbour and are sailing along fast offshore. So a gravity discharge tank with stopcock that can be wired shut would be on my list.
I'd rather build a composting head. Save a couple thousand dollars and not have a hole below the waterline, valves, hoses, and tanks full of wet poo to deal with.
I actually have a never-been-installed Lavac sitting in storage. I could sell it to fund building the composter and have money left over.

Quote:
As for storage - it does look a little light. I guess it is an outboard boat because I can't see an engine.
Yes, it comes with a Honda 9.9 on a bracket under the starboard cockpit seat. Not sure how I like the arrangement, but I won't knock it 'till I've tried it. I have a nice 2GM in storage, but doubt I would want to give up that much weight and storage space while adding drag, complexity, and cost.

Quote:
You should be able to do much better with the area under the cockpit.
I would put two 25 gallon water tanks and a watermaker down there. Also four 6v 4D batteries and the solar charge controllers. There would probably still be room for some bulk storage containers for dry foods.

Quote:
Also some of the cutouts on the stowage bins look a little too large and I wonder about the low lip on the bottom. Can you get under the floor? We can put huge amounts of stuff under our floors.
I didn't look under the floors, but you could be right. I didn't pay too much attention to the cutouts, either, but at least that is easily remedied with a little trim or doors.

Quote:
There will be other stuff you need for cruising, deep cycle batteries, solar panels, second and third anchors, anchor winch, good bridle setup, dinghy retrieval system or deck pad, storm sails, sun covers, cockpit dodger. There is a lot of difference between a nice boat for a weekend and a full time cruiser. You should get on board a full time cruiser's tri of the same length and see what you would need to cruise full time. Then add this onto the cost of the boat and remember the time required to get her up to scratch.
It does come with multiple anchors, and I have a Rocna 15 (33lb) I would keep for it.

I also have one 100w solar panel in storage and a second panel is $130. Figure $400 for batteries and $50 for a pair of charge controllers.

I've had multiple cruising boats before. I just haven't found a multihull that I liked at a price I could afford.

Quote:
I reckon it would take me about 3 months to get a simple tri (like I assume this is) to get her ready for cruising, in a boatyard with me working full time - 60-70 hour weeks (yep everyday from dawn to dusk). My wife would be working and I would be chewing the money up much quicker than she can make it. That is assuming I don't find any rot or have to repaint the whole boat. But the boat would be nice when it is finished and set up the way you like.
The time table seems about right, but not the cost. I prefer simpler systems and often buy used parts.

Here are some more pictures, this time of the exterior. Sorry if some of these are sideways, this post was made from my phone.
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Old 03-05-2018, 00:18   #4170
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It sounds like you have the experience to sort the boat out. If I didn't have too many boats, flying to the US and picking up a Searunner/Marples and sailing back to Aus would be a great thing to do. Have fun.

Phil
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