Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[dcamp]

38 foot cross- 15,000 pounds ,that seems awfully heavy for a 38 footer.I think because it's not plywood construction it's heavier than normal but would think it should be in the 10,000 range. Any thoughts on how this would affect it's performance and load carrying ability. I know an over loaded tri is not a good thing but is it different when the weight is in the build?

[Roy M]

How old is it, what keel does it have, what rig, what domestic equipment (refrigerator,water and fuel tanks), engine size, additional equipment (dinghy, outboard motor size, dive gear), and cruising load? 15,000 pounds isn't bad. It will still be faster than most catamarans, and obviously, the leaners (monohulls for the uninformed). What matters most, unless you are trying to make points in the informal racing circuit, is that it performs well for your needs. And if it draws attractive remarks, that's not bad either.

[dcamp]

thanks for the input. typical cross keel,sloop,small diesel, not really set up for cruising, factory built in the seventies.I guess I'd better go sailing before pulling the trigger.

[Cavalier MK2]

I'd pass. I can't locate my 38 info in a hurry but for perspective 14,500 lbs is the LOADED weight of a ketch rigged Cross 42 of which 4,650 lbs is payload. Did they make that thing out of solid glass instead of foam core? If it isn't floating deep someone may have made a mistake somewhere but if it is its dangerous, not enough buoancy and structure not designed for the weight. A empty 38 should be under 10,000 pounds.

[Roy M]

"Factory built"????????????? Says who? I knew Norm Cross, personally, drank many bottles of wine while lashed alongside CROSSFIRE, and went to his funeral. The closest his boats came to mass production was from a couple builders (South Bay Multihulls in Chula Vista, for one) who cranked out a few, but nothing like "factory" implies. And what is the typical keel configuration? Norm's most famous boats all had "fighter wing/coke bottle hull" keels, and his earlier boats had long, shallow cruising keels, like the Searunner minikeel. And if this boat is what I think it is, you are talking about a ketch rig? Or perhaps a single mast? Norm's boat characteristically had rigs without spreaders, with the shrouds extending to the float hull outboard side. We used to good-naturedly chide each other about the relative merits/disadvantages of each other's rigs. We had fun chasing each other, especially when I'd steer for shallow water or a kelp bed. Fin keels are more efficient, but centerboards beat them all to hell in thin water. You will probably enjoy your Cross, they are great performers.

[dcamp]

not mass produced by any means ,built by windfast marine , I believe in san diego.When I said factory built I meant not a home or amateur built boat.

[aquavitae]

Does anyone have relatively exact dimensions of a mast step (in the cockpit sole) for a SR 37? I know Jim Brown recommends 3/8 stainless or 1/2 " thick aluminum for the step but little further detail.

The PO of my 1982 SR 37 used 1-inch IPE hardwood which has not stood the test of time or tradewind sailing here in the US Virgin Islands and it is time.
Thanks in advance

[Roy M]

Since every mast may have a different section, and since each should have a proper mast "step" to secure its base, there is no exact unit called out. You simply need something slightly wider than the base step, broad enough to span the centerboard trunk gap, and sturdy enough to withstand the compression, and to spread the load out onto the two horizontal stringers that are built into the top of the trunk. I added two vertical 2X6 timbers directly beneath the mast step, epoxied to the trunk, and resting on the lower stringers that the bottom plank secures to. It was probably strong enough without the additional timbers, but I felt better afterwards. The forty carries a little more load than the 37, and I haven't had any problems in, approaching, forty years. I'm pulling the stick in a month, so I can take some pictures of the existing mast step. I am going to be modifying the step a little to allow for more electrical and electronic cables to pass through and into the side of the CB trunk. I'm also considering installing a flattened section of copper pipe as a grounding strap to the bottom of the minikeel, and installing a copper "worm shoe" plate for lightning protection.

At the moment, I am still refurbishing the cabintop and cockpit in prep for primer. Then I will start work on the dodger and the aft hatch turtle. There is nothing to take pictures of, yet. Thank goodness the decks are done, otherwise the boat would be a complete disaster zone.

[aquavitae]

thanks, Roy
Any photos of mast steps of 37 or 40 ft SR 's (fore and aft) would be greatly appreciated!

[UNCIVILIZED]

I've been a G10 fan (for mast steps) for many a decade. Strength's on par with Aluminum (in the good stuff), but no corrosion to deal with. Which can be an issue with steps, seeing as how they're at the bottom of a large "funnel". As well as their residing in the bilge on a lot of boats.

[UNCIVILIZED]

On SR masts, would you gent's be kind enough to throw out some numbers for cross section dimensions, as well as Ixx & Iyy numbers, for the tubes on SeaRunner 37's & 40's, please.

Also, has anyone built, or seen any which are stayed out to the amas? That, & I know it's a wild query... but how about ones built with diamond stays, or in the B&R fashion as well.

[Roy M]

I have used G10 on other boats, specifically as the base plate for a club-footed jib boom rig. As long as it is painted with an opaque paint, or used down below out of the sun, it's OK. It is an epoxy resin combined with fiberglass and molded under great pressure to create a very stiff, VERY HEAVY (due to density) material. It's not easy to tool (drill, saw, grind), but for some applications it can be terrific. I just used some 1/2 inch stainless for mine because it was easily available forty years ago.

As for the staying of shrouds out to the amas, it was the favorite system of Norm Cross. Jim Brown (and others) preferred the use of spreaders so as to allow tighter sheeting leads, wrapping the genoa around the spreaders. It puts a greater compression load on the mast, though, than spreaderless rigs. It didn't seem to be an issue, though, as both Browns and Crosses would regularly duel with each other on San Diego Bay in the old days.

I will be incorporating a new twist on this idea (I hinted at it earlier). My running backs will lead to blocks at the end of my cabintop, outboard and aft of the mainsheet traveller. Fritz Richardson, a local rigger (and former SR37 owner) with considerable chops in multihull sailing and rigging, showed me this trick recently. We are going to be incorporating it when I do my rigging makeover next month. The running backs will be Dyneema, or equivalents.

Diamond stays, especially with newer synthetic shrouds, may be on the horizon, keeping the weight down while making for minimum blocking sheet leads. I'll leave that for others to explore - I need to go cruising soon.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Roy M

I have used G10 on other boats, specifically as the base plate for a club-footed jib boom rig. As long as it is painted with an opaque paint, or used down below out of the sun, it's OK. It is an epoxy resin combined with fiberglass and molded under great pressure to create a very stiff, VERY HEAVY (due to density) material. It's not easy to tool (drill, saw, grind), but for some applications it can be terrific. I just used some 1/2 inch stainless for mine because it was easily available forty years ago.

As for the staying of shrouds out to the amas, it was the favorite system of Norm Cross. Jim Brown (and others) preferred the use of spreaders so as to allow tighter sheeting leads, wrapping the genoa around the spreaders. It puts a greater compression load on the mast, though, than spreaderless rigs. It didn't seem to be an issue, though, as both Browns and Crosses would regularly duel with each other on San Diego Bay in the old days.

I will be incorporating a new twist on this idea (I hinted at it earlier). My running backs will lead to blocks at the end of my cabintop, outboard and aft of the mainsheet traveller. Fritz Richardson, a local rigger (and former SR37 owner) with considerable chops in multihull sailing and rigging, showed me this trick recently. We are going to be incorporating it when I do my rigging makeover next month. The running backs will be Dyneema, or equivalents.

Diamond stays, especially with newer synthetic shrouds, may be on the horizon, keeping the weight down while making for minimum blocking sheet leads. I'll leave that for others to explore - I need to go cruising soon.

On G10, actually, it's density is only 2/3 that of aluminum - www.matweb.com And given that often enough, it's strength's on par with aluminum... that's why it caught on with racer's decades ago. And is now in the mainstream, sailing wise.

As to moving your runners, what's the perk? More consistent tension, due to them using the main hull as a box beam, vs. the flexing in the connectives between the hulls altering their tension?
And yes, I know Fritz, going back 25 years.

I was just curious as to what replys I'd get on the shrouds question. I've been racing for 3 decades, so little's new in that arena... Well, other than seeing how hard we can push the new toys prior to something bad & expensive happening ;-)

[Roy M]

Moving the runners inboard will allow me to NOT have any bearing of an active portside runner on the outboard side of the RIB that is nestled on the port wing deck. Also, there will be no need to run additional blocks to guide the hauling part of the runner UNDER the secured RIB. It will then allow the runner to lead, via a line clutch, to the Harken 50 deck winch used by the genoa and other control lines (at the moment, only asymmetric or the screecher on the code zero).

I'm surprised to hear about the density of G10 being less than aluminum. The pieces I scored for another project seemed so much heavier for the volume of material.

It's good that you know Fritz, and how incredibly talented he is. How about Mark Gumprecht ? He built a beautiful Kantola here in SD a number of years ago. Bob Dixon is another local demi-legend. He and Fritz sailed on CRUSADER (and survived its dismasting and destruction by the Chilean Navy, off of Cape Horn) as well as CROSSFIRE. The local multihull community is pretty small, and most folks get to know each other pretty quickly. I'm surprised we haven't met, ourselves. Or maybe we have.

Here's a pic of the G10 reinforcement I did on a C&C 9.9. It's simply painted with LPU. The above-deck portion was 1/2" G10, which remained flat, and the underdeck portion was 1/4" G10, which bent to match the camber of the underside. Everything was epoxied and held in place by the 3/8" stainless flathead machine screws, REALLY cranked down. The previous installation of the owner had developed significant deck fractures at the fasteners, so this made it bulletproof.

[UNCIVILIZED]

I haven't been in that area for a number of years, but yes, the multihull community is a small one.
I first met Bob Dixon after rebuilding my Searunner 31', as at the time I was berthed next to the old Waterworld boat. And he had been hired by some folks to look at it for a perspective project. It having the same hulls as Lakota.
Which was actually about the time period when Steve Fossett kept his boat down at the other end of Shelter Island, from that boat.

My Searunner was previously owned by Ralph & Ginny Cadman, who moved up to a 37'er, which they cruised in Mexico for quite a while after their retirement. Something they'd done previously in the 31'.

I liked the 31' but for the lack of a permanent double berth, & her miniscule load carrying capability.
I can't help but to wonder why Jim Brown designed the boats to sail with immersed transoms. Such is quite an odd state of affaris IMO. Otherwise, they're decent designs though, & I'd love to have a 37' or 40'. But they so rarely come on the market that finding one, I think, involves a bit of magic. Even if you're up for travelling to find one, as most fans of them are. Me included.

As to G10's weight. I'm with you, it does seem heavy. Probably because one doesn't think of it as being closer to a metal than a composite. But it's good stuff, especially if you get one of the higher grades, that has a good bit more glass (or even stronger reinforcements) in it, than resin.