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Old 01-07-2013, 07:38   #2326
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

CENTERBOARDS VS DAGGERBOARDS:
No ruffles on my end either Mike, not a bit. I was just "discussing" the issue of pros & cons of cruising boat "daggerboards VS centerboards" in a general sort of way, then how that applies specifically to Searunners.

One thing that is true of many old boats, but REALLY true of Searunners, is that our designs are about the most highly developed out there. Everything has been tried, and changes to the basic design must be done with experience, engineering insight, and only up to a point. My hard dodger with soft enclosure, and Ross's larger, more enclosed version for example, were done in a light weight and non intrusive way, that did not hurt the boat in other ways. Some folks took it way too far in trying to solve the Searunner conundrum, the walk over central cockpit.

Besides protection from the elements when crossing over, the other conundrum of the "mast in the cockpit" idea, is mast clutter, and the lack of passing room. With a raised daggerboard between the steering pedestal and the mast, the mast winches have to be rethought and moved for one thing. The other problem, is that it puts in a visual "wall" dividing the living space in what is effectively our 3rd cabin, when we're facing the wind at anchor.

Finally... switching a Searunner to a daggerboard design fundamentally changes a "practical" boat that has found the perfect balance between speed/performance, seaworthiness/seakindlyness, comfort, crew safety, and payload organization. It makes a rugged, practical, "pickup truck" of a boat, into something far less rugged, harder to get around in, and far less practical.

I am guessing that there may be 400 or 500 Searunners still "out there doing it". Of these, most were built a long time ago, and many went through decades of neglect, then got re-built by a new owner. These boats were designed back in the days of "tune in, turn on, and drop out". Regarding the boats built in the '60s & '70s... neither the materials available nor the designers'/builders' thinking at the time was about extreme longevity or extremely low maintenance. The goal was to knock them together ASAP, and SPLIT, for a better life lurking over the horizon.

So, yes, most of these Searunner CBs, their trunks, and their rudder/skegs were under glassed back then, (in critical areas, by > 50%, imo)... The design was and is good! These trunks are STRONG, as are the boards. Their long term ruggedness, however, calls for better hardware mounting methods, a bit more glass on all trunk & foil sides, and a THICK bulletproof leading edge on the CBs and skegs. Anyone doing a major SR re-build, should take this into account and beef up the glass schedule where it needs it.

With our SR 34 being launched in '96, more was known about SR weak spots, so we did all of this and a long list of other upgrades, from the get go.

It is such a shame that so much of our SR fleet went through sometimes decades of abandonment and neglect. If it weren't for that, even the early built ones would still be in good shape.

Mark
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:47   #2327
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

US MADE CHAIN:
I just posted much this on another thread, but thought it might be useful here, since so many of us use 1/4" HT/G43 chain.


Re: Chain Galvanization question
A good price on ACCO chain can be gotten at Marine Warehouse: tom@marinewarehouse.net Or sales@marinewarehouse.net This tidbit compliments of Nick on Jedi...

I am currently ordering a custom made ACCO HT/G43 1/4" chain with an oversized end link from them, because in my size chain, there is no 5/16" shackle available that matches it's 2,600 SWL. Once you move up to 5/16" HT chain, Crosby makes a HT 3/8" shackle that fits and exceeds the WL of the chain.

I got 8 years of hard use out of my last 100' X 1/4" HT chain, (shown), but the anchor end rusted up first. It is not a big deal, but no doubt the WASI SS swivel made this a bit worse. Mostly, I think it was abrasion. This time, with my new 130' chain, when the end rusts up badly, I may cut off 15' or so. Then I can use a STRONG G7 "double clevis connecting link", (even if it IS only "plated"), to connect in a 3 or 4' tail of 5/16" chain. I could now directly connect this larger chain tail to the swivel, and get a couple more years out of the entire chain, (with maintenance of the connecting link)...

West Marine's prices are high btw, even with a PS account. Also, their current 1/4" and 5/16" HT/G4 chain, just like their shackles, are made in China. I generally have no interest in Chinese made chain or hardware myself...

West Marine does sell other ACCO chains, but not in the HT/G4 grade, IT is actually Chinese. Bear in mind, that even ACCO has an "imported" line of chain called "Boaters Pride". Some of their hardware as well, like the G-7 double clevis links, are just zinc plated and "imported". These days... If you care about Origin of Manufacture, ask!

Mark

PS, I used just a boatlength of chain for my previous two boats, and for the first 10 years on Delphys. It was fine then. I was younger and had ALL shallow anchorages. Then came the deep anchorages of the E Caribbean... Now that I have a windlass and mostly lay to chain, I could never go back! I can shorten scope a bit, have more safety against a sharp bottom, and the holding (especially in mud), is MUCH improved.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:47   #2328
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
I've never owned a Searunner, but it seems that there are a lot of worries about the centerboard. I'm curious - has anyone ever replaced the centerboard with a daggerboard? Seems like a lot less maintenance headaches if you could make it work.
Cat sailors could give a less biased account of cruising with daggerboards. They are a good solution if the trunks are properly built. I like Newick style crush boxes.

For a Searunner they would be sort of in the way in the cockpit. A more interesting solution for a rebuild would be to move the cockpit aft and have a large main cabin with the trunk in it.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:04   #2329
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

One of the great pleasures from Jim Brown's design, especially as we move into the hot summer months, is the incredible air circulation one gets from having the companionways, forward and aft of the cockpit, coupled with the forward and sterncastle hatches. The Pivers, Crosses, Kantolas and Horstmanns I've sailed on with larger cabins can't compete with airiness, even with lots of cabintop hatches. The shortened distance creates a venturi that is really appreciated on a hot night. Plus, the privacy of separate cabins, for those who have family or crew with them, is priceless. The Searunner center cockpit and centerboard trunk is probably one of its distinguishing features, aside from how nice they sail. Then again, the sterncastle galley and dinette has to be the most comfortably designed cooking and dining area I've ever encountered. Out of the way, in the quietest part of the boat, with 270 degree views and an opening "window" where you can hear the hiss of the wake shooting past. Yum! It's different, but there is no design like it around.
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Old 04-07-2013, 17:58   #2330
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Very well put indeed Roy! Once one figures out how to provide some protection from the elements with a dodger to bimini connection and awnings, or in our case, a full cockpit enclosure as well, it's all good. The central cockpit is GREAT! There is simply no design like it for moderate to tropical climate cruising, which is the kind that most of us aspire to. We have been quite comfortable anchored out with temps well into the 90s due to having shade, and all of that cross ventilation. We actually never really suffered from heat, until it got to over 100 degrees in the Chesapeake, with NO wind.

An old friend put it very succinctly when he checked out Delphys for the first time. He sat under the bimini in the cockpit for a while, and just smiled. Then we all sat around in the sterncastle for beers, and he got a big grin on his face, saying: "VERY aesthetic space".

That's what it is...

M.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:09   #2331
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The Searunner Tri is a very clever design. A new french boat the "Neel" seen here NEEL trimarans It is a very interesting design and i cannot really comment on it. This issue is very complicated. The Neel starts from 45 ft so not comparing apples with apples but it does have what you would want at 45 ft. Searunners are truely amazing because how the interior sections work. The Stern castle and forcastle really are smart. I think that the design is so good that they could be built these days with very little changes. I suppose the hull material would change and the rig for more modern technologies but the actually design is quite amazing. Tri's normally for are a bit funny but i reckon the Searunner is a bit genious.
I meet this American guy who sailed his 37 ft Searunner to NZ and decided to put an aft cockpit and then you could walk along side both sides of the centre case. He said he didnt like the 2 sets step from stern to bow. I took a look at his boat and thougth wow what a lot of work to change the layout. It wasnt so roomy every which way you turned. I gotta say Jim Brown got it right. Especially with the wings vertical play as the beams to the Arma's. It might not seem that smart but it is very clever. Quite something really cause it was in the same time period as Piver (kinda)
Mid winter here isnt much fun
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:50   #2332
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

With a centerboard trunk that aft cockpit 37 interior sounds crowded. For that conversion a daggerboard makes sense. If you had a boat that needed the CB trunk replaced anyway then the project makes more sense. I haven't noticed any increased ventilation on the SRs I've been on but have seen the reduced airflow around the supporting CB trunk structure and dividing bulkhead cause rot on more than a few SRs.

Marples offers aft cockpit versions of the CC boats, I liked those layouts. In the smaller SRs the divided layout can be tight for a family if everyone heads to either area at once.
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Old 05-07-2013, 20:04   #2333
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Different strokes........
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:50   #2334
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West Marine does sell other ACCO chains, but not in the HT/G4 grade, IT is actually Chinese. Bear in mind, that even ACCO has an "imported" line of chain called "Boaters Pride". Some of their hardware as well, like the G-7 double clevis links, are just zinc plated and "imported". These days... If you care about Origin of Manufacture, ask!

Mark

[/QUOTE]

I work for the US Navy. USN has banned the use of any Chinese steel. It is inferior and doesn't hold up. I have noted that most of the West Marine shackles are Chinese. Buy smart. Buy American made.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:06   #2335
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Reefer status: I'm into the last stages of the box work. I installed some polyfoam (swimming pool "noodles") in the bilge to help support the bottom of the box and act as shock absorbers when the boat is bashing. Then I wrapped much of the box with Reflectex and did a trial fit, cut holes in the bulkheads for reefer plumbing, wiring and cooling water hose, then pulled the box out again for cleaning the bilge (again) and some other work. Tired of asking folks to come help remove the box, I installed a "skyhook" on the sterncastle ridge beam and attached the bos'n's chair block and tackle, lifting on some nylon lines attached to the shock cord eye straps in the box itself. Works like a charm. Now, if I ever have to get to the bolts on the prop strut, I can do so by just disconnecting some wires, refrigerant lines, install the skyhook and hoist away. I try to make EVERYTHING on the interior removable, "just in case".

The box cover also has the LED lighting installed. You can see the outline, in marking pen ink, of the inside of the box on the lid. This helped me to locate the strips. I will have three light modes, selectable with a rotary switch, and a toggle switch to actually turn them on and off. The modes are "bright white", "dim white" and "dim red". The dim mode uses two 24" white LED strips down the center. The bright mode adds a 24" white strip at the aft end, and two 12" strips at the forward end. When in bright mode (for showing off and for cleaning time) the LEDs draw less than 3/4 of an amp. The two 12" red strips are located between the center whites to allow me to root around for something cold to eat in the middle of the night watch without ruining my night vision. These draw less than 0.2 amps when in use.

In the coming weeks I will install the box permanently, install the cold plate and its tubing, install a digital thermometer (with alarm function), then place the reefer box top and cover the remainder with Reflectex. Then I can install the new honeycomb flooring and move, finally, onward with the rest of the galley remodel.
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Old 08-07-2013, 14:00   #2336
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

All very clever Roy, and I would expect no less, coming from you.

Love the cushions made of pool noodles, and the "sky hook" for raising and lowering was also a VERY good idea. When I placed my much smaller reefer box into position, (by myself), I was on my knees, bent over, and holding it out in front of me. BAD IDEA! My back went out so bad I was down for 6 weeks!

I too make EVERYTHING in the boat accessible and removable, like you said: "just in case".

You mentioned leaving access to your strut bolt's nuts... I live in fear of really snagging a crab pot line while motoring at speed, and bending up the works. It has happened to friends of mine. IF SO, I would do it differently next time.
I would custom make and bond in a VERY beefy inverted "A" frame double leg strut, out of epoxied over glass and mostly carbon fiber. It would be sized so that a standard cutlass bearing would fit.

I have had the idea for years, and wondered why it wasn't commonly done. This morning I was looking at some Jim Brown footage on YouTube, of the passage he crewed on along with Jo Hudson and my old friend Chic. This passage on a Marples CC35 was from the Fl Keys to Isla Mujeres Mexico and then up the Rio in Guatemala. This boat is one of my favorite designs, btw. To my eye, the aesthetics of the lines are perfect.



There is a scene where Jim shows off the boat's very clever inverted "A" frame strut. It might be a bit less slippery, but this boat still sailed fine, and the strut was close to indestructible... at least by a crab pot!

As it is, I just motor very very carefully, hoping I am not compelled to make "improvements". Under sail, my prop folds and should be naturally snag free.

Again... Great work Roy. I want to see it loaded with cold beer!

Mark
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:28   #2337
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Ummmm! Cold beer and cold watermelon. The two most important reasons for having a reefer while cruising.

Mark, thank you for finding that YouTube flic with Jim. He has the greatest attitude about life and sailing. Very inspiring reminder that there is life beyond the boatyard and the dock.
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Old 13-07-2013, 07:09   #2338
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I remember awhile back there was discussion about "wet lockers".
Mark had some good ideas about"not so wet lockers"
I am dealing with my "rot lockers" right now, and want to come up with a bit dryer hatch arraingement.
I'm also wanting to upgrade the lockers themselves to be stronger and less likely to rot.
I can't find the discussion.Does anyone have a link?
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Old 13-07-2013, 14:43   #2339
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

sea dragon, rot is a function of moisture in the air (which you have in spades), a food source (untreated wood) and the unlikely possibility of something drying out. Sort of like the fire triangle of heat, air and fuel. If you can eliminate one side of the triangle (or two) you will have a good chance to eliminate rot in your lockers.

My suggestion is to tent over the area for a period to eliminate fresh water from making the locker wet, place a good fan to move a lot of air to improve the drying of the wood, then seal the wood with epoxy resin. Be sure to then provide a way for moisture to drain out (limber holes through the underwing). Making the hatch lids watertight is nice, but not necessary as long as the wood is sealed and the new water can drain away.

Stabilizing the damaged wood is possible with epoxy resin, but you may need to splice in some new wood to reinforce the damaged sections. Just be sure you have coated everything with fresh epoxy.
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:57   #2340
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sea Dragon...

WING DECK HATCHES:
Since we are revisiting this issue, I went to the boat and took a batch of photos. It was good to empty out my starboard wing locker anyway, because they tend to become catchalls if you don't do a yearly purge. Mine had...

Roy has given you good advice in going about your repair. You can then fair out the newly DRY wood and fill the rot that got dug out using "Microlite". Next you can apply 4 coats of grey pigmented epoxy, in 1 day. The following day you sand in there (to a total glaze), to get everything relatively smooth, and knock down the razor sharp tits. This "prep" stage will have thin spots, so it is followed by 4 MORE coats of epoxy. The net result ends up being about 5 coats thick, and is very consistent in thickness. If the somewhat translucent grey pigmented epoxy is not totally opaque, the coating is to thin...

If this anchor locker were being built from scratch, actually glassing the interior parts before assembly would be best, but other than glassing of the bottom, it is not practical after the fact. Epoxy coating in there as I described, will definitely do the trick!

Once you do this properly... Roy is correct that these "wet lockers" will hold up fine, with or without dry hatches over them. I made a 30 gallon holding tank out of the portion of the hull itself that is under the head, by making huge fillets all around and applying 3 layers of 10 oz fabric, followed by 8 coats of epoxy. It has worked as a holding tank just fine, at a fraction of the weight of all alternatives.

SO WHY USE DRY HATCHES?
I did this partly due to John Marple's advice, but primarily to preserve the contents of the lockers. I do have the standard 2" drains below, but with very effective wave deflectors over them. I also have a Nicro solar vent in the dry hatch to maintain an air flow. This keeps the locker's contents both dry and mildew free. It also prevents corrosion and/or rust of metal stuff, like ground tackle or SCUBA gear.

You can see this one locker's FX16 and other contents on deck. This sort of stuff will get really nasty if left wet 24/7 for years! The waterproof wire gland in there, btw, is where I wired in my ama's emergency flood water float switch.

The well epoxied floor in the locker got a piece of of thin sheet vinyl from Lowes just layed in there, to prevent dings from the ground tackle. You can also see that I notched both the combing (on the downhill side), AND the hatch skirt. This is for the passage of the anchor rode, if needs be.

Now that I have a windlass on deck, I ALSO put my 35lb Delta primary in there when making a passage, rather than leave it on the bow roller. It actually fits on top of all this other stuff! This "notched lid" allows passage of the chain, which I tie down along the edges incrementally, to keep it from flopping around.

Bear in mind that I just took these photos, and it is going on 18 years since launch. It is still perfect in there. The contents hold up well too! On a really nasty passage to windward with deck sweeping waves, some water does get in there, but not much. Rarely, If it is warranted, I quickly rinse the contents upon landfall. Then with the cross ventilation provided, it all dries out and STAYS that way. So... these "dry hatches" are 99% water proof at sea, and 100% waterproof during the majority of the time when the boat is stationary.

If you store fenders and plastic jugs out there or similarly impervious items, it doesn't matter, but for us, it REALLY makes a difference. We put all manner of stuff out there that will live longer if kept dry.

These Nicro solar vents btw, will last for decades if you seal up the wire openings in the motor housings with silicone caulk. It was bad engineering as is.

Mark
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