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Old 03-06-2013, 12:29   #2236
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Welcome aboard, Mark. Save your money, don't use anything but linear polyurethane 2-part paint, and use whatever energy and time you have doing sanding and epoxy/fiberglass repairs (and more sanding). Having a steady job is a great way to hire someone who knows the tricks of 2-part paint. You will be a happier human being, despite being a little lighter in the pocket. Later, you can learn how to apply it, when it comes time to make the inevitable repairs that a well-sailed boat will acquire. And, congratulations. Norm Cross designed some great boats. We spent many weekends rafted together in Glorietta Bay near the Del Coronado Hotel in San Diego. What kind of keel does your boat have? It's new enough to have the fin keel with "area rule" hull, which is reminiscent of a Coke bottle. Norm started using that design since he was an engineer working in jet aircraft construction. It's how the fuselage "dimples" in where the base of the wing attaches. The laminar flow accellerates, making the boat or plane) go faster. His boats certainly did.

AGREED!

Go with LP paint, and save yourself from the ongoing hull maintenance, at least while you're out cruising. The existing one part paint will have to be CAREFULLY stripped first, (100%), and that will be more than half of the work. DON'T GO TOO DEEP! Also, I'd either hire help and do it fast (like in < 2 months), OR put it under cover during the project. You don't want any of the newly bare hull, baking in the sun for too long.

Crosses are far less "busy" boats than Searunners, so are far easier to paint and maintain than ours. With our double cabins, a more complex rig, a center board, hardware galore, a place for EVERYTHING, and a dozen hatches... even the best of Searunners are relatively high maintenance boats.

The Cross is a fine boat, btw... and would be my 2nd choice of the older trimarans.

Welcome to the thread!
Mark
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:23   #2237
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I agree 100% with Roy M and Mark Johnson
For those reading through this thread which is now a wealth of information especially for a Searunner owner ..... read carefully as opinions differ somewhat .... there are some that have experience huge mistakes with paint jobs. It is so important to get the painting right for these boats. If it is done well it will last for long long time
Proof my myself is my own 37 ft Searunner. I bought the trimaran 6 years ago with 2 pot paint that was well applied. I dont have to think about painting my trimaran.... Just touch ups from excessive knocks and abrasions... Under the wing looks like new.
The proof for me is in front of my eyes.
And yes this on going thread needs to go through this paint talk.....
It needs to be clear and sorted....
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:50   #2238
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

We really don't need to cover paint again, unlike the other camp I've had both on boats and wouldn't return to LPs for lots of reasons- ecology-safety-ease of use and practical durability. But my mind isn't closed to new developments in paint either. Keeping an open mind and trying new things ensures progress.

Some things like windows are a example. There are new methods of installing them. When confronted with a window set that has already caused the demise of 2 sets of cabin sides trying different ones should occur to the average sailor. Better ways of utilizing traditional approaches often miss the boat when a whole new concept would give better results entirely

Hope to see you on the water Will, I'm trying to finish out the main cabin before cruising this year, last summer was a bit rugged.
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Old 03-06-2013, 14:02   #2239
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I would be interested to hear the yard estimates for a complete strip in a covered area and repaint with LP. If it lasted 20 years chances are it would average $1000-2000 a year minimum. You couldn't spend that much on latex if you tried.
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Old 03-06-2013, 14:29   #2240
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

TAPE ADHERED PORTS:
I just looked up this new tape mounting option for ports, as it was new to me. Looks like it has many uses on boats, with "assisting" in mounting ports among them. For local daysailing, it seems like a reasonable experiment used by itself, but for seriously going to sea, I would combine it with either a trim ring system, the "Sherman tank" machine screws, or SOME kind of mechanical fastening.

BONDS TO PLASTIC:
I made many experiments over the years with both Acrylic and Polycarbonate, and found that almost nothing really sticks to it well, at least among caulks & glues. Butyl mastic was pretty tenacious, but in > 100 degree temps, got gooey and soft.

I made a number of parts down below, by "solvent welding" together pieces of opaque white Polycarbonate. To do this... I used Methelyne Chloride in a small flat tipped syringe, to barely wet the edges I wanted to bond. It made an instant strong bond, just like with PVC pipe...

MY PORTS:
I also don't really like the "look" of nuts n bolts ports, but if done correctly, they are as strong as the cabin itself, and totally leakproof. This system works best with Polycarbonate VS Acrylic, due to all of the holes to be drilled, and IF IT IS TINTED, like ours, this material will last over 20 years without crazing. An occasional polishing after the first 10 years will remove the light surface haze, and bring back most of the clarity. It will also work with Acrylic, but eventual cracks at the screw holes become more problematic.

My CLEAR Polycarbonate lenses on the dodger, now have crazes after 17 years, and many of these years were tropical, so they are due for eventual replacement, someday. Since only this nuts n bolts system will reliably hold my hard dodger's 6' long front lens, I will stick with Polycarbonate and good ol nuts n bolts. Bear in mind... I have 11 separate lenses on Delphys that are glazed this way, and after 17 cruising years, I have never had a crack or leak! This includes after being pooped by towering waves breaking over the entire boat.

NUTS N BOLTS POINTERS:
The key here is using the right glazing material, mounting bolts, caulk, and pressure. I used 3/8" long X #10 size (inside thread) barrel nuts, in each of the epoxy coated (X6) cabin side holes. Their heads were on the inside, and their cylinders were less than flush on the outside.

Into these would later go 1/2" long X #10 TRUSS HEAD machine screws from "Jamestown Distributors".

The holes in the Lexan were drilled TWICE the dia of the machine screws that would go into them, and to start out, TWO end "locator screws" were full size, for PERFECT centering of the machine screws into the much larger holes in the plastic they would go through. After bedding & mounting the lens, these two larger "locator screws" were replaced with the barrel nut to SS #10 machine screw combination, used on the rest of the port.

The correct caulk, (recommended by GE), is their SilPruf silicone. It comes in many colors, sticks pretty well, is EXTREMELY resilient, UV resistant, and unlike ALL OTHER CAULKS... It gives you the required 45 minutes of working time on each port. GE uses this stuff to glaze their plastics in sky scrapers!

In tightening the lens down, you go in opposite corners, then to opposite sides, just like torquing down a car engines head. When you get close to "there", you use ever so slight a pressure. You do not want total caulk squeeze out, just barely touching. This requires a VERY light touch on the screw driver, for < 1 Oz of pressure / screw! NO regular hardware store silicone will give you the time necessary for this much installation finesse and this long a clean up.

Then you clean up all excess caulk with Isopropyl alcohol, and peel off the masking tape on the boat, as well as the plastic's cover paper. Now you are good for decades of reliable service, from guaranteed leak proof, indestructible ports. NO PORTS THAT WERE INSTALLED THIS WAY... BY SOMEONE WHO NEW HOW TO DO IT "CORRECTLY", HAVE EVER LEAKED OR FAILED IN ANY WAY, EVER!

Even if it is done more attractively with trim rings, and the ports go inside of the cabin side's holes, this is the best caulk to use, because of it's working time. (It's bought by the case from GE). Remember the plastic's HUGE expansion rate! Leave about 1/8" of space all around it's edges if it is recessed in a hole or rigidly mounted.

For a SR 25 that is used only as a daysailor, by all means try using this "tape bonded only" port mounting technique. It probably wont get you killed, even if it does fail. For serious cruising, however, imo... all types of "bonded only" port glazing is too risky. FRP production boats do it all the time I know, but they frequently fail too, at the worst possible time.

Mark
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Old 03-06-2013, 14:52   #2241
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The counterpoint to the nuts and bolts method is that once water starts getting in the ply has all the strength of perforated cardboard around the window. Minus the tear here sign of course..... A trim ring addition like Roy's could be insurance for the wary....
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Old 03-06-2013, 17:49   #2242
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

ROY:
Hope the "yard" is kind to you. These boats get soo big sometimes. Really small at sea, and really big when working on them from underneath.

ROSS:
Great haul out method! Hope your's goes smoothly as well. THAT IS QUITE A TIDE YOU HAVE THERE!


PAINTS adnauseaum:
We can and have discussed the many advantages of using LP paints VS one part paint already, including costs. Those who have actully "been there done that" all agree...

The comparative cost of the 2 systems evens out for the most part, IF it is comparing doing ALL of the work yourself, and buying materials at a cost of 50% off, through one's business. ANYONE doing this sort of work should start a "business", it's EASY! I get all of my boat supplies & gear at a discount, and always have.

ALSO: Anyone with a custom made wood/epoxy cruising trimaran, better have ALL of these maintenance skills including painting, or really deep pockets. Those that have neither, seldom leave their home waters, for good reason!

"TRUE" PAINT COMPARISONS:
To be honest... you have compare the expenses after cruising the same two boats tens of thousands of hard sea miles, through 20+ tropical countries, over almost 20 years. One could add up what they saved in the haulouts that they DIDN'T have to have, and the MUCH higher resale value of their LP painted boat. The comparison then is either "about the same costs", OR LPs come out even cheaper to own than one part painted boats. This is only in that "big picture" context, mind you, not if you only compare the cost of a can of paint.

LP painting IS very expensive IF it is hired done, but even the "limited skill or scared to use it crowd" can do the prep, taping, sanding, papering, etc, themselves. This is about 95% of the work, saving you most of the expense! Then you can get a pro in the yard to JUST spray the hull in a day or two, OR... learn how to do it yourself with roller/tip.

Anyone who has not sailed mostly in the tropics on their boat as an ONLY home, mostly under way, for years, or used both paint systems extensively and then compared the hassle of both in the above context, does not have a valid opinion. They're just making it up as they go along...

I had spent over 20 years as a boatbuilder using 1 part paints, including anchored out on Searunners, before I even began my decades of use with LP paints.

LP PAINTS ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE! I readily admit that. If you do an LP job yourself, even if you use roller/tip, you need to go at it like a pro, even if you are not one. GET GOOD FIRST! The information is all there, but if things like wearing respirators, careful measuring, taking notes, and doing it exactly according to the instructions, freak you out... then it is not for you. In a custom made wood/composite multihull, however, I would simply use LPs or sell the boat cheap ASAP, and get a FRP production monohull instead, because it has gelcoat.

These trimarans have so damned much surface area, and unlike production boats, it all MUST be kept out of the sun or it will disintegrate. Paint on a Searunner's hull is not like on production boats, which use it for cosmetics. On our boats it is NOT for cosmetics, sound paint is a structural imperative! Our boats are both protected and held together by the resin & glass on the hull, which is in turn protected by the paint.

Painting of the structure is therefore the VAST majority of the hours of maintenance that will ever be done on the boat. If you can spend far more "up front" on LPs, and save more money and effort over decades, it balances out to being a no-brainer, imo. The difference is, that with LP paint, you are talking about just 2 intense paint sessions over decades, and then you are done! These LP sessions can be done in very carefully chosen circumstances back home, rather than MULTIPLE 1 part paint sessions, done in a huge variety of 3rd world countries. You are then buying whatever 1 part paint you can find, and eventually adding as much as 1,000 pounds in layers of paint to the boat, (over 20 years)!
Leaving 1 part paint peeling in places, until it is convenient to repaint it, is inviting "sun rot". DON'T DO IT...

With 1 part paints, if it is applied on a full time liveaboard/cruiser, getting banged into NUMEROUS times a day by the dinghy, and the boat is often underway in the tropics, you will not get more than one or two years out of the paint job. I KNOW THIS! I have "repainted" a recently painted SR 37 that had been constantly at sea, but for just 9 months, and it was already peeling. I really don't know how long 1 part paint last for those NOT in the tropics, who DON'T liveaboard, who are NOT really cruising, and JUST daysail or overnight on weekends... Even so, UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, LPs will last 8 to 10 times longer than 1 parts do, just like in the harsh constantly cruising world.

I have already said that if it were not for 2 part LP paints, I would now not own a trimaran at all. This is because I have done SO much boat work now, that I am sick of it. When I was younger, however, I enjoyed it! The point then was more about hanging out and working on my boat. "Actually going cruising" was a distant goal, and making the "Sunset celebration" in Key West was quite an adventure unto itself. For the young and energetic, having much more constant work on your boat than real cruising may actually have it's appeal. I was fine with 1 part paint in my 20s... For custom made trimarans that ACTUALLY travel the world these days, over 95% of them are painted with LP paints, as it is the only rational choice for THIS group. Like I said, it's a no-brainer...

LATEX:
I have used hundreds of gallons this kind of paint... If measured by volume, total area covered, & the number of years used, I have used it more than ANY other type of paint in my life. This was always on a house, of coarse, as it was intended. LATEX was formulated for easy/safe use even by children, easy cleanup, and minimal coats required for coverage.

The fact that it has very little abrasion resistance, very poor adhesion, (often < even masking tape), and "0" solvent resistance, is not an issue on the vertical walls of a firmly aground HOUSE! Years ago, I used the best latex I could get on my last house. It was Sears "best" WeatherBeater had the best CR rating, and cost about $125 per gallon! It was great to work with, but still had the above characteristics. I had to lift any masking tape EVER so carefully. Still, on a house, it was great stuff and lasts for many years. Bond strength and abrasion resistance means little on a house.

Using Latex paint on a boat, however, is a whole different thing from using it a house! On a totally beat up old monohull, or production work skiff, maybe. At least then when it fails, the gelcoat protects the hull from UVs. To use this stuff on the vulnerable horizontal decks of our custom made trimarans, and then go to sea with it and walk on it all day, is utter nonsense. Someone who lives up north and seldom really uses his boat like a full time tropical cruiser might "get away with it", but it is still utter nonsense, imo. The whole "latex paint your boat" thing is an irrational conversation that need go no further. "Paint your boat with house paint, it's the exact same application as if used on a house, and will work BETTER than boat formulated paint". REALLY??? So you know more than 99.99% of the pros on the subject, over the entire world?
And remember, if you use latex paint on your boat, you are committed to it forever. You can't go over it with LP paints OR even 1 part marine enamel, as both of these systems will melt latex!

I still think that a sap and Camel dung boat paint has promise! It works fine as the dye on my wife's African tapestries, why wouldn't it work as paint, on a boat?

IF you must or choose to opt for 1 part paint, to save some labor on a boat that is 95% "prep time" anyway, I suggest using the best rated 1 part marine enamel, as tested and reviewed by "Practical Sailor" or the like. It will have the downsides mentioned, but it sticks better than masking tape, (unlike latex), is pretty abrasion resistant, (unlike latex), and (unlike latex), you can use mild solvents on it as well, like mineral spirits to clean up tape residue.

Because of the huge surface area involved on our trimarans, and the harsh tropical cruising environment, (where most cruisers head for), the issue of which paint to use will go further than perhaps any other, in making it a good trip, vs a bad trip.

Regards to all,

Mark

I have, BTW... used FAR more 1 part marine paint on my boats, than 2 part LPs, just not lately.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:29   #2243
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Not to stir the pot (no pun intended), but does anyone here have any experience with waterborne LPU paint? A yard that I contacted gave me a fair price for a complete paint job but stated that they no longer use Awlgrip for health reasons and because of the difficulty in matching when doing repairs.

Clearcoat systems like these have become the standard for automotive painting and I would put the UV load experienced by a black car on a parking lot pretty high up on the scale. Furthermore, the yard owner said that the jury is now in on these paints and they work just as well as solvent-based LPU's. Spray guns need to be all stainless HVLP units but that doesn't seem to be too big a deal. Price is equal. Bugs are not drawn to it like Awlgrip either, a real plus here in VA.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:48   #2244
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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I would be interested to hear the yard estimates for a complete strip in a covered area and repaint with LP. If it lasted 20 years chances are it would average $1000-2000 a year minimum. You couldn't spend that much on latex if you tried.
Now if some people hadn't been inhaling so many hi test paint fumes without respirators we'd have some real data beyond the chest thumping naysaying. Use higher gloss not flat etc...as posted. If you haven't done the above on a boat your just making more assumptions and baseless assertions. Protect the epoxy? Why yes, latex does. I know because I've been using it on boats for the last 10 years and checking how it works. In comparison I watch my boat painted in LPs in 1978. Still there, still looks like crap, fine for cruising but not yachting.

If we looked at the average yachty wanting some non weathered paint over the years hiring it out he will spend a fortune every 5 years with professional over charging boat painters. If he goes to latex he could go 5 years looking the same but say he wants a super fresh look. He uses a multi year bottom paint and when hauled say every 3 years to redo the bottom he gets a house contractor to come in, give the boat a light sanding after washing and rolls and brushes on another coat of latex. Damn it looks good and boy did it cost less and gee nobody complained about the smell or overspray and golly over the 20 years he saves a fortune.

Another scenario, Joe trimaran sailing a Tristar (after hearing Searunner guys are a bit behind the times) spends a fortune to have his boat stripped, epoxied and faired because those guys really aren't as careful as all that and had it repainted in LPs. He leaves and sails everywhere for 20 years and the faded weathered beat up boat looks like crap for the last 15 years but hey he is cruising.

Bob trimaran sails a Crowther (having heard the things about SRs and thinking Tristars slow) He cruises for 20 years and recoats with local labor or by himself if he feels like it whenever things start to look too casual. Sometimes 3 years, maybe 6 when he was in Northern waters.(I don't count, I'm very casual) His boat always looks fresh because it is easy to keep it that way. When he cruises he seems less like a faded extra from Waterworld and gets a better place on the docks.

More than one way to skin a cat or paint a tri...just wear proper safety gear- on the one hand a hat and a smile will do because of water clean up....on the other, well , those brains cells were important designed in features like your lungs.
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Old 03-06-2013, 18:55   #2245
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by happyendings View Post
Not to stir the pot (no pun intended), but does anyone here have any experience with waterborne LPU paint? A yard that I contacted gave me a fair price for a complete paint job but stated that they no longer use Awlgrip for health reasons and because of the difficulty in matching when doing repairs.

Clearcoat systems like these have become the standard for automotive painting and I would put the UV load experienced by a black car on a parking lot pretty high up on the scale. Furthermore, the yard owner said that the jury is now in on these paints and they work just as well as solvent-based LPU's. Spray guns need to be all stainless HVLP units but that doesn't seem to be too big a deal. Price is equal. Bugs are not drawn to it like Awlgrip either, a real plus here in VA.
I haven't tried it but did paint part of a car in latex and it still looks like a house after 7 years. Seriously it sounds interesting but they will still have to strip your old paint. If you were a very casual boater you could roll on latex when ever another section peels off- in 10 years it will probably be all latex. Good luck.....if its new and untried by Mark,Satan is involved, 3 more people will tell you so and car paint can't work on boats because it doesn't say boat on the can.
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:16   #2246
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Actually one of the waterborne LPU paints DOES say boat on the can--System 3 WR-LPU. Maybe it's just DuPont auto paint in a different can?
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:42   #2247
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

You may have a chance.....what does the warning label say and can it be brushed and rolled? It might be one of those things everybody hopes somebody tries to see how it holds up.

My concerns are safety, ease of use-meaning no sprayer or specialized application, and durability. Latex does a great job for me and softens the things a hard shine would show up.
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:54   #2248
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The vhb tape is used in a lot of custom boats mono and multi down under.Also all the production cats have windows with just sealant.A friend down here in La Paz also installed windows in a big cat with just TDS teak deck system calk.It is what I used to seal the outer edge of my windows and the vhb tape is used on the inside edge.The TDS has 800% elasticity.I also used cast acylic for my windows as I have seen a lot of lexan windows installed in mexico cloud over in a couple of years .And lexan scratches easy.
Jim
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:26   #2249
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Update on the haulout: The new centerboard will not be installed at this time due to a fitting issue: it wants to bind at the bottom of the trunk where the glass has built up (per the original construction manual instructions). Since I won't be actually sailing for a while, because I'm pulling the mast and replacing the rigging wire after the haulout, this isn't a big deal. It will allow me to do the modifications on the centerboard with no pressures. Not to say that haulouts ever cause a sense of pressure....

All of the bottom paint has been sanded and prepped in anticipation of the priming and painting tomorrow. I pulled the rudder and stripped off the Splash Zone fairings around the rudder hardware and bolts, and inspected all the metal, as I do when I haul. Today I'll replace the fairings with fresh Splash Zone and make it ready for the bottom paint. I'm also going to disconnect the shaft from the engine coupling, and pull it out a couple feet to inspect for any corrosion or pitting at the shaft log or the cutlass bearing, then reconnect it. It will allow me to prep the shaft and prop for another treatment with Prop Speed antifouling. This stuff only lasts about a year, but what a difference it makes. Then, when I so a straight haulout to put the new centerboard in, I can apply a fresh coat of Prop Speed, prior to taking off. Fortunately, it's only a few hundred bucks to simply lift me out and do some touchup work on the hulls, not the full monty. I haven't had time to transfer the pics from my camera, but I'll do so when I have more time and energy. This early to bed and to rise nonsense isn't making me any wealthier or wiser, but it is getting the job done on the boat. Forty feet is a lot of boat.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:53   #2250
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

a 35 ft trimaran have the same space like a 29 monohull.
Best regards
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