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Old 12-05-2013, 15:53   #2146
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I received a PM suggesting I re-ask this question on this particular thread, so here it is! :P

So I'm buying a SeaRunner 34 in a couple of months and the price is pretty much clearing out my budget. Over the next few months, I'd like to make some minor improvements like adding EZ-Jacks for the mainsail and roller furling for both headsails (it's cutter rigged). The only problem is that the headsails are hank on and I really don't want to (nor have the money to) spend $6000+ for two roller furling systems plus sails.

Has anyone come up with or heard of a reliable do-it-yourself roller furling system for hank-on sails for a boat this size? I've seen a solution for smaller boats where they cut holes in a long PVC pipe that's slipped over the stay so the hanks could still attach to the wire for load bearing and the PVC pipe just rolls up the sail, but that seems a bit flimsy for a 34' boat. Anything stronger seems too heavy or outside my ability to work with.

So, any experienced suggestions? I know this is a bit ridiculous, but when you're working on a small budget, you look for any ideas you can get!
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Old 12-05-2013, 17:36   #2147
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

silvirus, you say you are on a limited budget, and as most of us have been there (or still are) I offer this suggestion. First, set yourself up with the simplest, cheapest system, hank-ons. Later, as you acquire more experience with the boat, and more resources, install the roller furling gear, aft of the headstay. Then, you will be able to fly a variety of sails in all conditions. Don't waste time and money with compromises. Start basic and build strong. You'll end up a lot more satisfied, and get far more bang for your buck.

For example, buy a hank-on genoa. Later, install the tang for the roller furling equipment aft of the headstay, and mount a roller furling yankee. Later, add a roller furling staysail. Mark is the best resource for this setup. I'm sure he will chime in when he sees this. Listen to his advice, he is the guru of the 34s. He know his stuff, and he isn't one to waste money and effort to achieve the best performance possible in your boat.
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Old 12-05-2013, 17:53   #2148
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by silviris View Post

Has anyone come up with or heard of a reliable do-it-yourself roller furling system for hank-on sails for a boat this size? I've seen a solution for smaller boats where they cut holes in a long PVC pipe that's slipped over the stay so the hanks could still attach to the wire for load bearing and the PVC pipe just rolls up the sail, but that seems a bit flimsy for a 34' boat. Anything stronger seems too heavy or outside my ability to work with.

So, any experienced suggestions? I know this is a bit ridiculous, but when you're working on a small budget, you look for any ideas you can get!
This is a good question and I'm sure others will want to know it in the future, assuming they have the fortitude to read it all.

Jim Brown made his own roller furling for Scrimshaw and it was pretty inexpensive. It's covered on one of the scrimshaw videos on youtube which he did with Joe Farrinachio. There are about a dozen or so and I think you might do well to watch them for other ideas too. If you need plans, I would contact either John Marples or Brent Swain who has a book that also covers how to make your own roller furling. The books is about 20 bucks.

Jack Molan went with a colligo anodized furled which is a second option.

Personally I think your choice will in large part be determined by what is on the boat. If the boat comes with hank-on sails, it's rather expensive to simply switch as soon as you get it particularly if you're on a limited budget and it's very, very rare to buy a boat that doesn't need some sort of repairs. There is the possibility of getting the sails modified but, again, an unwarranted expense.

To address your question dead on though -- I haven't heard of roller furling system for hank-on sails because they work differently. Hank-ons rotate around the stay; roller furling rotate around a column which around the stay. I suppose one could be rigged up but you would loose the ability to drop the sails, would need to get some sort of UV protection while its rolled and you would have all the problems a bunch of hanks would cause in terms of wear
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Old 12-05-2013, 19:40   #2149
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thanks for the replies, guys! This is why I post my ideas to the forum....better to learn from others' experience rather than make the mistakes myself. Trying to run over as many ideas now so I can prioritize!
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Old 12-05-2013, 19:44   #2150
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

ROLLERFURLING PROS & CONS:
Imo... Rollerfurling ceases to be "better" than hank on sails, when it is homemade and less than perfectly reliable. In fact, the first 10 or 15 years of "factory made" rollerfurling headsails were nothing to write home about. Now, the better brands, (I like proFurl), are extremely convenient AND reliable.

I agree with Roy here. To save money, you can start out with hank on sails. As a younger man, I had them on my first two boats, without any complaints.

If you want to, you can rig up a 1/8" parachute chord to the halyards snapshackle, and run it through each piston hank, to a small turning block on deck. With this setup, you can pull the chord while your crew pays out the halyard, and have the sail down on deck before you go forward. Then you only have to lash it down and/or bag it.

On Searunners sailed as a cutter as originally designed, (unlike Delphys which is sailed as a sloop), hank on sails have one big advantage over roller furling. You can change from a genoa to a yankee headsail easily. Each sail is on a pennant, and you can lower one headsail, unhank it, and in seconds... lash it to the bow rail on one side. Next, you raise the alternate headsail that was lashed down on the other side of the bow rail.

See the SC 28 photo below? I had a series of doubled up 3' rope ties "permanently" fixed on each side along the bow rail area, just for this. When not being used, they were tied in a nifty little slip knot up close to the rail. When I needed them, one pull and the sail ties dropped down. To change from one sail to the other, was usually about 1 minute! For a cutter that is sailed that way, nothing wrong with hank ons!

On my rig, rollerfurling became the cat's meow, only because I have a single large Lapper headsail, which is like a genoa sized high clew yankee. I never need to change headsails. When the wind is REALLY up, I strike the lapper entirely, and raise the staysail.

Especially on a conventional rig with hank on sails, and being on a limited budget, forget rollerfurling for now. Later, when you can spring for a good roller furling unit, you may want a special made sail for it at the same time, sort of like ours. (We got our ProFurl unit through JSI at 50% off, about 19 years ago) Look for a deal!

Then, keep hank on sails for your staysail! If you have a roller furling sail here, especially on the 34, the tacking of the headsail will constantly chafe away at the stitches on the staysail's cover, assuming it is rolled up on the extrusion. Also, a hank on staysail stay can be removed for easier tacking of the headsail. This REALLY matters with tacking your genoa.

At sea when making a passage, it is no big deal having the staysail stay rigged up because you so seldom tack, but daysailing in tight areas, a removable staysail stay is great.

When we are making a passage, we have the staysail in it's bag, already hanked onto the stay and with sheets rigged up. I can unzip the bag, hank on the halyard, and get it up in seconds! In a serious gale, we sometimes sail with the staysail alone, perfectly balanced. If it gets even worse, we can head downwind, and raise the small storm staysail!

So, short version... It may be different on the larger boats, but on the SR34, you don't want a rollerfurling staysail at all. For the headsail, I'd start out without it, until you can afford a good unit AND a special purpose headsail lapper for it. Once it is on there, you will find that changing sails on a rollerfurling unit is such a pain, that you just wont do it once you leave the dock.

Hope this helps,
Mark

On the "Don't feed the birds photo", we had just come to NC, 8 days from Culebra PR, with our staysail rolled up on deck, hanked on, sheets run, and ready to raise in seconds. When not expected to be used, but we were at sea, it would hang from the stay, in it's sail bag. Only when sailing in our current protected stomping ground, did we remove the staysail bag entirely, and store the staysail stay back.

On the old SC 28 shots, you see how the sails were lashed down when in "go" mode, or at anchor, my primarily used headsail was in it's bag, ready to go.
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Old 12-05-2013, 20:14   #2151
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sound advice and will most likely be the way I go. My first upgrade after I get the maintenance caught up will be something to get us out of the sun while sailing (I'm a high melanoma risk), so a retail roller furling system is a ways down the line.

Out of curiosity, does sailing with both headsails add any significant speed, or is it just a small boost that cuts down the time on longer passages?
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Old 12-05-2013, 20:43   #2152
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

You might find,after using the hank on sails.....
That they are no problem at all.
especially on a 34 ft. boat.
Maybe take the money you would use for the furlers, and put it in the cruising kitty.
It's only a 34 ft boat.
You practically don't even need mast winches on a boat that small.
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Old 12-05-2013, 21:00   #2153
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by silviris View Post
Sound advice and will most likely be the way I go. My first upgrade after I get the maintenance caught up will be something to get us out of the sun while sailing (I'm a high melanoma risk), so a retail roller furling system is a ways down the line.

Out of curiosity, does sailing with both headsails add any significant speed, or is it just a small boost that cuts down the time on longer passages?



On a conventional cutter rig like standard Searunners have, you use a LARGE lightweight genoa by itself up to about 15 knots of wind, (unless it is off the wind, in which case you can handle higher). Next step... sail as a cutter with both a medium sized yankee & staysail well up into the 20s, then reef the main 30%, and sail well into the 30s with just the staysail, with or without the double reefed main.

You DO need two headsails as a cutter. The yankee & staysail is a slug in single digit winds. The genoa will get damage in high winds AND overpower the boat. So... you need both.

Sailing with just the yankee is not enough sail and IF it was blowing THAT hard, you would be better off sailing with the staysail alone, as it is lower and better balanced.

My hybrid sloop sailed Searunner only works well because I have a tall rig and a large lapper the size of a genoa, but the robust weight and construction of a yankee & then some. At 20 knots of wind, I roll it up a bit, and don't strike it until steady in the 30s. Only then do I need to use the reefed main and staysail alone.

For your cutter... If you have hank on sails, you definitely need a yankee & staysail for med to high winds, and unless you are content to creep along in 15 knots app., you need a light weight genoa too.

You can hold off a while on a "storm" staysail and spinnaker, but really need a double reefable main, yankee, staysail, and genoa.
This is the caveat of the original sailplan.
Mark

In the roller reefed photo previously posted above, I have rolled up about 20% of my lapper and have up the full main. We're going a steady 9 knots to windward, in 26 knots of wind. You could do this as a cutter too, with both headsails together, but the light weight genoa would rip. In light winds, the double headsails would not move the boat well at all, so you strike them and raise the genny.

Mark
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Old 12-05-2013, 21:01   #2154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silviris View Post
Sound advice and will most likely be the way I go. My first upgrade after I get the maintenance caught up will be something to get us out of the sun while sailing (I'm a high melanoma risk), so a retail roller furling system is a ways down the line.

Out of curiosity, does sailing with both headsails add any significant speed, or is it just a small boost that cuts down the time on longer passages?
I have not sailed long passages on my boat, but I would say the double head sail adds 10% to boat speed vs single head sail, but with no drama. It does not press the ama down, or respond to gusts, or drag your bow off in shifts. I don't use it often, but when I do use it,I like the extra power.
It also looks fabulous.
:-)
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Old 12-05-2013, 21:07   #2155
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea dragon View Post
You might find,after using the hank on sails.....
That they are no problem at all.
especially on a 34 ft. boat.
Maybe take the money you would use for the furlers, and put it in the cruising kitty.
It's only a 34 ft boat.
You practically don't even need mast winches on a boat that small.

The 34s rig is very close to that of the 37... I know you jest here, but you definitely need winches on the 34! Fairly big ones too. My sheets are regularly so tight that they are getting skinny and I could walk on them without their sagging. To crank them in takes two hands and a long handle too, in high winds.
M.

OOPS... I see you said "mast" winches, meaning halyards. True, I only need them for raising the last foot of the staysail, and last 3' of the main.
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Old 12-05-2013, 21:20   #2156
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

So I'm clear for this boat:

Low to 15ish: Genoa
15-25ish: Yankee + Staysail
Above 25: Staysail and reef the main

That about right?
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Old 13-05-2013, 09:05   #2157
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

You'll have the first reef in the main before the wind hits 20 knots, but you'll have plenty of warning as the rail buries and the steering gets weirder. Same for the second reef. When in doubt, reef. You can always shake it out, but it gets harder to reef when you are way overcanvassed. But you will pick this up once you are screaming past Point Loma with wind blasting over the hill down into the channel. It's very exciting, especially as you are freight-training past the "leaners". We call it Hurricane Gulch when it hits.
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Old 13-05-2013, 09:19   #2158
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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You'll have the first reef in the main before the wind hits 20 knots, but you'll have plenty of warning as the rail buries and the steering gets weirder. Same for the second reef. When in doubt, reef. You can always shake it out, but it gets harder to reef when you are way overcanvassed. But you will pick this up once you are screaming past Point Loma with wind blasting over the hill down into the channel. It's very exciting, especially as you are freight-training past the "leaners". We call it Hurricane Gulch when it hits.
I actually know what you mean on this one. The owner took me out for a demo sail and we went past the point. I was amazed an how much the wind picked up off that hill! I was expecting some, but not as much as it was.
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Old 13-05-2013, 09:23   #2159
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Roy's right, hete on the San Fransisco Bay I normally go out with the second reef in and rarely do i take it out. Even my old Piver which is sloop rigged same thing. Fact is on it I had to put blocks on each of the sheets to give me more purchase. But boy its fun sailing here. Just wish it was warm water.
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Old 13-05-2013, 10:22   #2160
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Ditto those points Roy, and I might add...

What you do in protected seas on a fast/fun daysail is very different from what you do when at sea cruising. For example, when we sail here in the Neuse River, Pamlico Sound, or (like in the previous photos showing boat speed)... a short duration mad dash at sea to Cape Lookout, then we "almost" never reef the main in high winds. It just isn't usually necessary. On the other hand, when we were in the Eastern Caribbean during winter, we finally got tired of getting beat up going from island to island. About half way down the chain, we put in a double reef, and kept it in for about a month of mostly daysails between islands. Around sunset... when we lowered the main upon making landfall, we just kept the reefs tied in... So what that the next day we would be going just 8.4 knots instead of 9! In those choppy seas, often with contrary current, and crabbing to windward, we were NOT looking for more speed.

You will find that in winds over 20, a reef in the main will not slow you down much, and like Roy pointed out, buy the time it's blowing over 25, it becomes physically harder to reef. It is not absolutely necessary to reef the main then, just way EASIER on yourself to do it earlier than later.

For a short daysail a single reef might be fine, but on a several day/week passage, a double reef, early, is the prudent move. Remember, with our runners set up, as they usually are when on a passage, we can only spill so much of the wind in an emergency, because the boom is restricted to about 45 degrees out angle! Not true of the headsails.

We also have a THIRD reef made into the main, but have never used it. By that time I prefer the staysail alone, which still balances perfectly.


REGARDING YOUR QUESTION:
Low to 15ish: Genoa
15-25ish: Yankee + Staysail
Above 25: Staysail and reef the main
That about right?

WELL...None of the app wind numbers is etched in stone, but that is the ball park. If for example you had a very heavily built genoa, (which most are not), AND you were on a broad reach in protected seas, you could probably fly it up to 20 knots and leterrip!

Off the wind the boat has a MUCH nicer motion and for the same app wind speed, is FAR easier on the sails, rig, and boat. Hard to windward in a gale, is brutal on ANY small boat. Use your gut instints... IF she is scalping the wavetops and pounding hard, it is past time to reef. It is really not about the risk of capsize 99% of the time, it's about tearing up sails or breaking something at sea, where it is hard to deal with.

Now, I sail like an old man. When we made it from Trinidad to the Beaufort NC inlet in 12 sea days, my mantra was:
DON'T GET SICK OR INJURED.
DON'T FALL OFF THE BOAT.
and DON'T BREAK ANYTHING.

We stayed between 6 and 8 knots most of the time, and I tried not to beat as hard as necessary, (50 or 55 degrees was OK), but make up for lost ground later when the wind shifted. It was a pleasant hurricane season trip, without drama for a change!

In the photos below, (and the one above), prior to the more recent Eastern C cruise, we were beating HARD to windward... up the Eastern Coast of Andros Bahamas in the Tongue of the Ocean. The seas were 13 to 15' and winds 38 gusting into the low 40s. With a double reefed main & staysail, it was doable, but NOT pleasant. I would now ONLY do this for a reason and for just one day.

You will get your instincts for it, it just takes practice.

Mark
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