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Old 03-05-2013, 09:59   #2071
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Just how is a coating that requires regular reapplication going to be considered to be eco (or economically) friendly? Latex paint isn't made out of cornstarch, it leaves derivatives behind as it deteriorates. The coating that holds up for 12-15 years, is thinner in material volume, and withstands abuse must seriously be considered in this discussion. Granted, shine is a debatable feature, but durability and cost per life cycle easily trump the cheap and cheerful argument.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:20   #2072
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Max prop blades are not symmetrical, they have a front and a back. The leading and trailing edges have different profiles when feathered. The former owner of sailors exchange here in St Augustine launched his boat last year with the blades on backwards.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:30   #2073
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Just how is a coating that requires regular reapplication going to be considered to be eco (or economically) friendly? Latex paint isn't made out of cornstarch, it leaves derivatives behind as it deteriorates. The coating that holds up for 12-15 years, is thinner in material volume, and withstands abuse must seriously be considered in this discussion. Granted, shine is a debatable feature, but durability and cost per life cycle easily trump the cheap and cheerful argument.
Each to there own Roy, I don't think you have a hand let alone a trump. The latex is inert without the toxic application and solvent issues and holds up well. Most people with LP recoat at a 5 year interval to retain the gloss. I'm cheerful because I don't have to work any harder than the lp guys and can save on buying the forced air ventilation. Not cheap, just less expensive on soooo many levels.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:36   #2074
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I did say I wanted to avoid another paint dust up so to speak, BUT did you say you think the semi gloss behr is best? I got a sample quart of semi last year and did do a small test strip on whaler, but have since sold it. the owner of Serenity used flat behr on the SR 34 and that stuff is real bad. Easily wears off on the fender when alongside the dock and smudges the hull all up.

any word on the Cape Horner?
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:43   #2075
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Well the cheap and cheery did get Drew off cruising! As they say at FACEBOOK, "done is better than perfect"

If I could not buy industrial surplus LP here for around $35/ gal, I would be seriously considering all other options.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:16   #2076
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yes sorry to Roy, "The Cruise of the Snarky Comment" (apologies to Jack London) has hit the usual rocks.... Its not paint or a coating but a latex glove of love for when your bows are penetrating the waves of gaia.....and Mother Nature always appreciates those that transverse her surface using protection....

Ahem...the glossier the better, gloss if they make it semigloss if they don't, flat anything rubs off and absorbs dirt.

Putting the backyard back into boats makes sense for some people. It can be hard to justify a $15,000 paint job for a $20,000-30,000 boat. The paint won't add enough value to pay for itself. I can hand a brush to anyone with latex, LPs take practice as well as gear, a couple gallons in 5 years is pretty economical.
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Old 03-05-2013, 14:46   #2077
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I have two tries that need the decks painted. do i need to go with 2 coats of a 2 part epoxy primer or can i use some thing like Valspar that is a one coat primer and paint.combo exterior latext? Don't want to spend a fortune either.
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Old 03-05-2013, 17:25   #2078
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Just how is a coating that requires regular reapplication going to be considered to be eco (or economically) friendly? Latex paint isn't made out of cornstarch, it leaves derivatives behind as it deteriorates. The coating that holds up for 12-15 years, is thinner in material volume, and withstands abuse must seriously be considered in this discussion. Granted, shine is a debatable feature, but durability and cost per life cycle easily trump the cheap and cheerful argument.


PAINT... ONE LAST TIME:
Of coarse you are correct here Roy. You and I know that when we are referring to LP paints, we are not talking about the production monohull yachtie crowd, and what they would do or want... We're talking about real "long distance" tropical cruising/liveaboard "one off" trimarans. These rugged world cruising craft are usually painted by the guy who built and maintains the boat. If we go for shiny LP paint (for it's hardness & longevity), it is NOT because of the shine, but in spite of it.

For this guy, 12 to 15 years between LP paint jobs is a reasonable expectation, and in some places, more. Under the wings for example, "where the sun don't shine", IF you undercoat with 3 coats of grey primer that is not sanded through, then 30 years is quite likely!

I worked on a major year long re-fit to Delphys, in a HUGE boatyard with 8 full time professional LP painters. Among my projects was a total LP re-paint. (All of which I got at half off through one of the painters)...

Like ALL of them, being that we were spraying outside... I just used a $29
3-M respirator, not an outside air supply. UNlike the "pros" however, I couldn't afford the best spray gun, and got by with a $39 HVLP gun from Harbour Freight. The paint job came out GREAT anyway, and 9.5 years later, still looks great! It is a bit more semigloss now, but I actually prefer that look.

It is a reasonable choice to use an inferior one part paint IF that is what someone wants to do, but be honest... over say, 20 to 30 years, the costs come out about the same or possibly even more, and it's WAY more work. You have to look at the big picture... The repeated re-paints of cheap 1 part paints, (or God forbid Latex barn paint), requires repeated haulouts, more "yard time", and 10X the paint. This is VS the guy who re-paints his LP job just TWICE over that 30 years. Even to do just the bottom, I only haul out every 5 years or so...

Any peeling, dings, or rub throughs on the boat from using inferior 1 part paint, would need to be repaired IMMEDIATELY, in order to protect the vulnerable hull surface underneath from UVs, (more so in the tropics). For painted over FRP production boats this is not true, as their original gelcoat gives them plenty of time to repair the paint later.

Imo... More than with production boats, our one off tris cry out for the long term protection of LP paint. No, you will not get your money back, but neither will the guy who goes with 10X as many cheap paint jobs, that costs close to the same, if totaled up after 20 or 30 years.

IF a person can't bring themselves to go to the trouble, can't get together the money required up front, doesn't have the skills, or is afraid of the LP paint's requirements, then perhaps 1 part IS better for them. Having said that, however, looking at the issue over decades of boat use... the notion that this "quick N dirty" choice is vastly cheaper or vastly more environmentally friendly, or far less work, is sheer nonsense. One part paint requires less focus and skill, true, but that is the ONLY advantages. LPs may not be a better "choice" for everyone, but it IS a better paint job, across the board.

I make all kinds of extreme shortcuts on occasion, particularly on trivial things like a john boat, where it just doesn't matter to me. I NEVER, however, rationalize that my shortcut is NOT a shortcut, but is somehow "better". That is called being "irrational".

I suggest that we all make the right paint choice, for us... but be honest about it.

ABOUT THE CAPE HORN SR34:
This boat was next to me in the year long boatyard adventure I mentioned above. It was Tusitalia, and belonged to my friend Chuck. The story was simply that the previous owner, (and with another boat name), had been on an uneventful decade long circumnavigation, with his kids, by way of Cape Horn. It may have started out differently, but I think he was a single dad toward the end of the voyage, and still had the kids with him. My point had simply been, that much more than with monohulls, with multis, SIZE REALLY DOES MATTER. Once one gets up to 38 or 40', there are a lot of circumnavigation capable multihulls out there. In JUST 34' long, however, the SR 34 is the ONLY one that I would consider it in. Others may disagree, but having studied the subject, that is my educated opinion. Luckily, I never wanted to... There are too many places I just don't want to pass through, on the way to the nicer places!

THE STORM:
Chuck and I had launched our boats at about the same time, and were shortly hit by Hurricane Ivan in our Bayou Chico. I stayed tied to my private dockage situation, (with 21 lines on her), and we put Tusitalia in the shallow end, on my 3 anchor mooring swivel.

This storm was just 1 mph shy of cat 4, had been a 5 until the final approach, and was pushing a 13' surge. I stayed in my dock landlord's house at the top of the hill, (they'd evacuated). By going out into the storm (at night)... in sometimes 150 mph winds, on 9 ocasions, I was able to loosen her lines as needed. The last couple of trips was doing the side stroke, holding a flashlight over my head.

As my house refuge got water up to my arm pits inside, I left, looking for the only stilt home in the neighborhood. I got there about 20 minutes later (almost hypothermic), and found refuge. Chuck, on the other hand, (2 blocks away), had also left his home through a window, due to similar flooding. He spent the night on the roof of the minivan across the street! He was in his late 60s, btw.

The next day when we were out assessing damage, it was just cat 1, and BOTH of our Searunners were among the 5% on our side of the bayou that were still there! All the others were WAY up in someones yard.

Chuck had now reached the time to hang up his sailing shoes, sold the boat, and moved to the mountains of Panama. I never heard of Tusitalia again...

Of the 12+ hurricanes Delphys & I have weathered, this one stood alone. Each category number is TWICE as bad as the one below it... Our Searunner's low COG, low profile, wide/low horizontal platform, and 10 docking cleats (strong enough to lift the boat), have served us well through them all.

Yeah Searunners!
M.
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Old 03-05-2013, 17:47   #2079
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The fumed fume.
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Old 03-05-2013, 18:53   #2080
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sorry if I'm breaking up a nice Searunner discussion, but I need help. I plan on installing cowling vents on the bow and stern of both amas on my Searunner 37 "Honeywind" and I have seen them placed in different areas (top and/or side). Can someone help me with the pros and cons of placement? Also, I ask a while back I asked about the height of the mast above the waterline for the SR37. The RR bridge on the Okeechobee canal was 49.5ft the day I went through and I think I had about 4 inches to spare. This was good news for me and worth the soiled jockeys. I also discovered the importance of keeping the boat light. Big sea/winds and a heavy SR is a bad combo. I have owned the boat for 2 months and I'm really loving it. Jim Brown is a clever fellow and years ahead of his time.

Best,

Stu
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Old 03-05-2013, 20:26   #2081
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hi Stu,
Good that you slipped under that bridge without incident. Our 34 has a mast height of 53" with the antennae, or 51' with just the tricolor light. We would not have made it!

About your ama vent question... We keep a dusty dry bilge, and I wanted that to be true in the amas too. The problem at a dock or at anchor, with all of the cowl vents on SR amas that I had seen, is they let water in when it really pours in a gale. I came up with a very well ventilated but bone dry solution.

I will paste this here again from a post 10 pages back. My apologies to the rest of you for the redundancy:


PREVIOUS POST:
I too use Beckson deck plates in my ama sides, for ventilation, and access to the nuts on lifeline padeyes, cleats, etc. They are always open, unless I am at sea or "will be" in the morning. Then they are left securely capped.

A note about these Beckson "o" ring deck plates. They are cheep, totally secure, dry, and really last! I'd say, > 30 years... Am I right Roy?

I LOVE DIRT CHEEP, REALLY QUICK, PERFECT SOLUTIONS. It makes the other 99% of boat work more tolerable! Here's a couple...

PVC ELBOW DORADE BOXES:
If you want good ventilation, but not rain infiltration, (I mean NONE), I would use these Beckson deck plates rather than the clam shell type or scoop vents that are so popular. In a blow, rain gets in these, even with the little deflectors added...

With the deck plates, here is how to make them into a true dorade box, with ZERO water infiltration. Now, this is at the dock, at anchor, or motoring up a creek. Under way, as I said... we always cap them.

The Beckson deck plate plastic is easily solvent welded to standard sch 40 PVC pipe, with PVC cement. You use a 90 degree sewer pipe elbow, cut one end of the elbow off just a bit short, (but 90 degrees to the other opening), and glue the other end of the elbow to the round flange on the deck plate.

My memory gets fuzzy here because I have made several versions, but... Either you use the flare end of the elbow, or slip the elbow in a flare upsized adapter sleeve. Which ever I used, had a beveled inner hole with already eased edges, and the OD of the fitting was a PERFECT match for the Beckson Deck plate's flange. (Both had the EXACT same OD). Just take your deck plate and go to Lowes. Play with the pipe fittings till it all fits...

After gluing the elbow onto the deck plate's flange, With the deck plate held vertical, the far end of the elbow sticks up vertically, no more than the deck plate's outer mounting flange does. (cut off any excess) If you now mount the deck plate with the flange's OD about 2.5" down from the deck, the PVC pipe elbow's horizontal opening, is now parallel to the deck, and 2" or so below the ceiling in the ama. This much room gives PLENTY of air movement, with no water. This air movement is due to a strong venturi effect where one ama deck plate pulls air in from the one on the other end, even in VERY light winds.

A nice and important finishing touch to keep birds and dirt dobbers out, is to cut a disc of standard house fiberglass bug screen, and glue it to that PVC elbow adapter's beveled inner edge, that is now JUST after the glue joint to the deck plate's flange. (PVC cement works great here too.)

My "dorade box ama vents" still have the original deck plates, screens and all, after about 19 years. I do carry spare lids, in case I drop one. (So far so good)...

These deck plates are good enough, btw, that I even used them on the lid to my holding tank, which was built out of the hull itself. I trust them.

ANOTHER APPLICATION:
The "dorade box out of PVC elbows" works in other applications too. I.E. For ventilating our sealed and sound insulated sub floor engine compartment, (under the aft companionway ladder), we use 4" in and out elephant's trunk hoses. They run up to the ceiling in the galley storage shelf areas, (1 port, & 1 starboard), then along the cabin ceiling in there, to the cabin sides. Here they turn down and are immediately hose clamped onto one of these PVC elbows, that goes down, turns & goes out. To cover this hole on the outside is a large SS clamshell, tipped down just a bit.

For making the "dorade box vent", The 4" PVC elbow was glued to a threaded adapter sleeve first, and the threaded part was fitted through the epoxy lined hole in the cabin. Then a 1/2" long slice of the female threaded PVC sleeve is screwed on as the "nut", bedded in caulk.

To get into the engine compartment, water has to go into the clamshell, (half way up the cabinside), turn to enter the PVC elbow, turn again to go up about about 10", (before entering the hose), and only then does it start the horizontal & down hill run.

It works in all manner of deck sweeping waves, hurricanes "hunkered down somewhere", and gales at sea. The only water infiltration failure was when a wave broke WAY over the ENTIRE boat, while going hard to windward in a gale. Then water was close to my knees in the cockpit, and it got in from every opening. I don't count that, and I don't sail that way anymore anyway!

M.
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Old 03-05-2013, 20:36   #2082
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Those sound great, but really hard to follow the design. Maybe just tired.
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Old 03-05-2013, 23:58   #2083
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Many designers put them on the top for pretty good reasons. They also can be made closable and leak proof. Upon thinking about instructions including relating plans from Dick Newick, Norman Cross and Hedley Nicol I've come to the conclusion that boating is like many things. If you have to ask should you be doing it? When applied to warning labels and safety instructions with painting systems those companies have to print that crap for liability reasons so they can't get sued when people use their products. If you can't read and understand the problems with the chemicals involved and use the appropriate safety gear in the prescribed manner.....go ahead and paint. There is nothing to worry about, your brain has nothing that will be damaged by taking short cuts or copying the lab rats or "pros" or whatever.....
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:55   #2084
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My father was a latex paint man.
Once a year we would scrub the cabinsides and deck down in the morning,
and paint that afternoon(at anchor).
The topsides would be done the same way on the beach.
That was a 2 day deal because it was a monohul,so we only could do one side at a time.
Next day we would go sailing on our newly painted craft.
I totally understand,and applaud where you are coming from about latex paint,Cavalier.
With boats,like women,
It's not the fancy makeup on the surface that matters,but what's underneath it.
There's no end to the expensive"latest innovations"that the boating industry wants us to believe we have to buy.
We don't need 95% of that crap at all.
Bicycicling is an example.
All you really need is a bike(and helmet)
But 90% of riders wear ridiculous lycra leotard monkey suits complete with ridiculous shoes.
They might as well wear a sign saying"I am an idiot"
What's up with that????
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:13   #2085
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
Hi Stu,
Good that you slipped under that bridge without incident. Our 34 has a mast height of 53" with the antennae, or 51' with just the tricolor light. We would not have made it!

About your ama vent question... We keep a dusty dry bilge, and I wanted that to be true in the amas too. The problem at a dock or at anchor, with all of the cowl vents on SR amas that I had seen, is they let water in when it really pours in a gale. I came up with a very well ventilated but bone dry solution.

I will paste this here again from a post 10 pages back. My apologies to the rest of you for the redundancy:


PREVIOUS POST:
I too use Beckson deck plates in my ama sides, for ventilation, and access to the nuts on lifeline padeyes, cleats, etc. They are always open, unless I am at sea or "will be" in the morning. Then they are left securely capped.

A note about these Beckson "o" ring deck plates. They are cheep, totally secure, dry, and really last! I'd say, > 30 years... Am I right Roy?

I LOVE DIRT CHEEP, REALLY QUICK, PERFECT SOLUTIONS. It makes the other 99% of boat work more tolerable! Here's a couple...

PVC ELBOW DORADE BOXES:
If you want good ventilation, but not rain infiltration, (I mean NONE), I would use these Beckson deck plates rather than the clam shell type or scoop vents that are so popular. In a blow, rain gets in these, even with the little deflectors added...

With the deck plates, here is how to make them into a true dorade box, with ZERO water infiltration. Now, this is at the dock, at anchor, or motoring up a creek. Under way, as I said... we always cap them.

The Beckson deck plate plastic is easily solvent welded to standard sch 40 PVC pipe, with PVC cement. You use a 90 degree sewer pipe elbow, cut one end of the elbow off just a bit short, (but 90 degrees to the other opening), and glue the other end of the elbow to the round flange on the deck plate.

My memory gets fuzzy here because I have made several versions, but... Either you use the flare end of the elbow, or slip the elbow in a flare upsized adapter sleeve. Which ever I used, had a beveled inner hole with already eased edges, and the OD of the fitting was a PERFECT match for the Beckson Deck plate's flange. (Both had the EXACT same OD). Just take your deck plate and go to Lowes. Play with the pipe fittings till it all fits...

After gluing the elbow onto the deck plate's flange, With the deck plate held vertical, the far end of the elbow sticks up vertically, no more than the deck plate's outer mounting flange does. (cut off any excess) If you now mount the deck plate with the flange's OD about 2.5" down from the deck, the PVC pipe elbow's horizontal opening, is now parallel to the deck, and 2" or so below the ceiling in the ama. This much room gives PLENTY of air movement, with no water. This air movement is due to a strong venturi effect where one ama deck plate pulls air in from the one on the other end, even in VERY light winds.

A nice and important finishing touch to keep birds and dirt dobbers out, is to cut a disc of standard house fiberglass bug screen, and glue it to that PVC elbow adapter's beveled inner edge, that is now JUST after the glue joint to the deck plate's flange. (PVC cement works great here too.)

My "dorade box ama vents" still have the original deck plates, screens and all, after about 19 years. I do carry spare lids, in case I drop one. (So far so good)...

These deck plates are good enough, btw, that I even used them on the lid to my holding tank, which was built out of the hull itself. I trust them.

ANOTHER APPLICATION:
The "dorade box out of PVC elbows" works in other applications too. I.E. For ventilating our sealed and sound insulated sub floor engine compartment, (under the aft companionway ladder), we use 4" in and out elephant's trunk hoses. They run up to the ceiling in the galley storage shelf areas, (1 port, & 1 starboard), then along the cabin ceiling in there, to the cabin sides. Here they turn down and are immediately hose clamped onto one of these PVC elbows, that goes down, turns & goes out. To cover this hole on the outside is a large SS clamshell, tipped down just a bit.

For making the "dorade box vent", The 4" PVC elbow was glued to a threaded adapter sleeve first, and the threaded part was fitted through the epoxy lined hole in the cabin. Then a 1/2" long slice of the female threaded PVC sleeve is screwed on as the "nut", bedded in caulk.

To get into the engine compartment, water has to go into the clamshell, (half way up the cabinside), turn to enter the PVC elbow, turn again to go up about about 10", (before entering the hose), and only then does it start the horizontal & down hill run.

It works in all manner of deck sweeping waves, hurricanes "hunkered down somewhere", and gales at sea. The only water infiltration failure was when a wave broke WAY over the ENTIRE boat, while going hard to windward in a gale. Then water was close to my knees in the cockpit, and it got in from every opening. I don't count that, and I don't sail that way anymore anyway!

M.
Thanks for the input and I agree that water needs to stay out. I'm not sure I can do what you did, but I think you gave me a good idea with the PVC. Appreciate it.

Stu
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