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Old 12-02-2013, 09:03   #1786
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Location: San Juan Islands
Boat: Searunner 40
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

A 40 ft searunner side tied to a 34 looks huge by comparison.
Much more boat,weight,and waterline,freeboard and load carrying ability.
A 9.9 saildrive just doesn't cut it on a 40 to my satisfaction.
My motor is a yamaha high thrust 25 identical to the 9.9 saildrive ,except that it's 2 1/2 times the power at any speed and has a bigger prop(12")
and weighs 95 lbs more.
When I bought my boat,it had a diesel in it,along wih no headroom over the engine,tankage,engine shafts ,greasy spare parts,smell heat,and vibration and alot of other things I didn't want in my living space.
I got rid of all that crap,lowered the floor and have gotten used to it that way in the last quarter century.clean and uncluttered
The motor did make a good mooring however.I'm sure it's still there at the bottom of Glorrietta Bay.
I prefer to not drag a prop and shaft through the water all the time also.
My boat is a Sail boat,not a stink pot.It sails great!
Maybe you guys should tell Jim Brown the bad news that his outboard on a sled is a bad idea.
I was looking at those great videos of his and Scrimshaw is amazing.
It seems to work well for him.
Anyways,I enjoy talking about all ideas with you people.
Please,don't anyone feel like I've got my knickers in a twist about the widspread condemnation of my latest "cunning plan"
This is a great forum!
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:46   #1787
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I won't condemn either approach. The inboards seem to be ideal for people more centered on motoring as a way of "getting there" on schedule, certainly most sailboats you see are running the iron jib. We are also a sail boat to the point of not stopping a cruise or sail if we don't have an engine. We have sailed From Puget Sound through the San Juan's and back without any motor in monos and multis. We took the Nicol to Princess Louisa Inlet in BC taking a 1957 7 1/2 hp Evinrude along for the ride. It even started now and then. As a tool for seamanship any engine should be thought of with caution. Too many boats have been lost because their operators put themselves in situations where if the engine stops the boat is wrecked.

Searunner31's observation about mount location is a good one because what works on one design might not work on another. The hull shape and center of bouyancy and center of gravity have a lot to do with it. A boat like a Newick for example is lifting the ends around the center with a lot of stern motion. The motor should be on the beam to keep from dunking. Our Nicol is broader towards the stern and was designed for a transom hung motor, with a standard long shaft it doesn't cavitate. For any boat getting the sled closer to the pitch center will minimize cavitation. I wouldn't knock the notion of 2 9.9s or 2 sleds. It worked for the Wharram's 63 on round the world trips. The 25hp at just 95 pounds more than a 9.9 wins on the power to weight ratio. The fuel economy will be comparable at low throttle settings with plenty of power reserves. I ran the calculations on our 9.9 and found the prop has very little slip used with the low drag Nicol hull. We get more than 7 knots out of it but cruise at about 5.5. I wouldn't expect the 25 to be a speedster but a work horse.You can figure out a theoretical top speed out of any motor with a reference like Skene's using the pitch and diameter tables combined with the RPMs. When you use the motor run a tachometer and you will be able to see how much slip you are getting at full power, 1/2 power etc.... and be able to figure out your maximum economy.

Lots of valid approaches, I too like keeping the motor very much an auxiliary and out of the SAIL boat. Cheers
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Old 12-02-2013, 14:02   #1788
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

If you are motoring for long periods in the mid latitudes and that can be for days or weeks you need something that is economic and safe. I believe that these outboards dont cut it. They are a quick fix.
Meaning they are good for the day sailor but if you are going out into the deep blue ... well get a diesel engine cause its about getting to the destination. An outboard just doesnt have the capacity of fuel and if you carrying gallons and gallons of petrol... you gotta be mad with its combustion qualities. Thats my 2 cents worth from down under...........
And my yanmar doesnt smell infact its as clean as a whistle and i could eat of it.
Get one of these they use just use one gallon and hour or less doing 5 knots in my 37 Searuuner... beat that....
Model
3YM30
Configuration
4-stroke, vertical, water cooled diesel engine
Maximum output at crankshaft
29.1 mhp (21.3 kW) / 3600 rpm
Displacement
1.115 L (68 cu in)
Bore x stroke
76 mm x 82 mm (2.9 in x 3.2 in)
Cylinders
3
Combustion system
Indirect injection
Aspiration
Natural aspiration
Starting system
Electric starting 12 V - 1.4 kW
Alternator
12 V - 60 A
Cooling system
Fresh water cooling with heat exchanger
Lubrication system
Enclosed, forced lubricating system
Direction of rotation (crankshaft)
Counter clockwise viewed from flywheel side
Dry weight without gear
123 kg (271 lbs)
Environmental
EU RCD US EPA Tier2, BSO II & EMC
Engine mounting
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Old 12-02-2013, 14:27   #1789
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

And to ad to the safety factor.
If you trying to push into a gale and want to get around a headland and its getting dark and the tide is against you and the a safe anchorage is just minutes around the corner but you cannot get there cause you outboard doesnt have the oomph and is cavitating to hell so you decide to head back to where you came from or head out for a few more miles as the gale intensifies.... well what would you rather have ... a diesel thumping away under your hull or a screaming outboard attached to the side.
I know what i would rather have. I almost decided to put an electric motor in my Searunner but decided against it..... thank goodness i got a inboard diesel engine. They are light efficient and very effective if you have the exact correct prop. I recommend a gori.
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Old 12-02-2013, 14:37   #1790
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It sounds like a good engine, I do use much less than a gallon an hour with a full load doing 5 knots with the yamaha though. Plus my boat wasn't designed for a inboard. I would also never carry enough fuel to motor for days or weeks at a time because odd as it seems we go sailing to sail and don't mind drifting. The boat sails much faster than it can motor, especially in a gale and does quite well in those conditions but I expect your Searunner could too given the chance. On the rare occasion I was too lazy to rig the staysail and motored against the wind it does a good job in over 30 knots but would need some main for motor sailing past that. Horses for courses, everybody "sails" differently. Enjoy being out there!
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:10   #1791
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
And to ad to the safety factor.
If you trying to push into a gale and want to get around a headland and its getting dark and the tide is against you and the a safe anchorage is just minutes around the corner but you cannot get there cause you outboard doesnt have the oomph and is cavitating to hell so you decide to head back to where you came from or head out for a few more miles as the gale intensifies.... well what would you rather have ... a diesel thumping away under your hull or a screaming outboard attached to the side.
I know what i would rather have. I almost decided to put an electric motor in my Searunner but decided against it..... thank goodness i got a inboard diesel engine. They are light efficient and very effective if you have the exact correct prop. I recommend a gori.



All very good points Ross.
I agree! For OUR boats, the safety difference is huge... Both in the engine's ability to save your bacon, and in our inboard's carrying much safer Diesel fuel, VS Gasoline.

On a "small", open winged, coastal cruising tri, like my SC 28, the OB motor was proportionately huge in power, but not in size or weight. Also, with it being aft cockpit, I could steer the tiller with my left hand and motor's tiller with my right, at the same time! She would almost parallel park in my side-to slip! The OB motor, used on THIS boat, (even with its occasional cavitation), was far more "perfect", than a compromise.

On a SR 25 or 31, OBs become a bit less than perfect, due to the SRs central cockpit putting the OB motor further from your reach. You can't steer it and the boat together, (like I could on my SC28), so close maneuverability is compromised. Still, these Searunners have limited space and fewer other options. The OB motor's BIG pluses of being cheep, portable, "0" drag, and "0" growth still tip the scales for it being a very good compromise here. Jim's sled IS the cat's meow!

On the "larger" winged over SRs, however, an OB motor is proportionately smaller, FURTHER out of reach, and toward the end of the boat where you don't want the weight and the pitching is worse. The controls get even more fiddly to rig up, and you are now carrying a huge amount of GASOLINE vs half as much Diesel, fuel, (for the same 4 days of motoring ability). YIKES!
These are the sizes of Searunners that are most likely to be long distance cruisers too. If it is a "local" cruiser that NEVER leaves the country, or gets out in truly terrible seas, or motors for days on end, or runs inlets SURFING flat out in 8' breaking waves, then an OB motor MIGHT make a little sense. OTHERWISE:

For "serious cruising", a proper diesel installation, (VS OB motor), is 10X more utilitarian in ALL sea states, and steering is FAR better, due to the prop wash flowing past the rudder. They are safer, more powerful, and more reliable, while sipping a fraction of the fuel. For this "serious long distance cruiser" group, in the larger Searunners, IF THEY WANT AN ENGINE... the choice is a nobrainer!

Of coarse a crap diesel installation, (if one has one), is as useless as a crap OB motor installation... Either installation should be thrown out!

Our little 2 GM 20F Yanmar, is 18 years old, has run thousands of hours, (been to over 20 countries), and never once let us down. In all of this time we have replaced only three small parts. She normally motors us at 6 knots, sipping just 1/2 gal/hr. The engine is clean enough to eat off of, and has NO smell. With a CV joint, I have never even needed to re-adjust the shaft alignment, AND the PSS shaft seal works better, letting in NO water at all. (We have only dust under the engine). We have a fuel polishing system as well, so as we are running on tank #1, I can be polishing the fuel in tank#2. The engine is sealed under gasketed and sound insulated floorboards, with outside ducted piping for air, and it is both vibration free and VERY quiet!
It is wide open and fully accessible to work on as well.

Comparing my boat, with my diesel installation... The very best OB motor installation in the entire world, (if also mounted on my boat), could not hold a candle to it, for all of the features that one really needs in a "long distance cruiser". With our geared "Flex o Fold" prop, (just like a Gori), the losses from drag while sailing are literally un-measurable.

The drive train does have to have growth removed from it on occasion, where as a kicked up OB does not, but that is an OB motors only real advantage over a proper diesel installation, (on the larger Searunners), IF they're intended for long distance ocean cruising.

Like I said, its a no-brainer.
M.
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:46   #1792
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Some bad points there for me. Most people counting on their bacon being saved wind up getting fried by things like dirty fuel and not having the sails up and reefed for conditions when the motor cuts out and by running routes that put them in jeopardy if the motor doesn't run.

Running about 5 1/2 knots we are getting 12 nautical miles per gallon at 5 we'd be closer to 14 so the economy for us is fine. I'd sure hate to carry the several hundred pounds extra of engine and machinery. It is sad to see so many people who believe they can't go anywhere in safety without lots of extra things. If you read Jim's book again he suggests dispensing with the engine to get the most out of the boat. One contraption I'd like to make is a pedal drive for those ghoster days. Exercise and economy.
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Old 12-02-2013, 17:10   #1793
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I pushed around my heavy 32-foot cat with one of the first 9.9 HP Yamaha 4-strokes that was geared down with a long shaft and the big prop. It was mounted forward in a cockpit well and couldn't come out of the water no matter how rough the seas, but still it was nowhere near as efficient as a small diesel would be. However, we used it for thousands of hours including offshore runs to the Caribbean, Bermuda, etc., and numerous long days up and down the ICW. I would rate it as OK for a 32-footer, but not ideal. One of the biggest problems is simple corrosion. An inboard is much more protected from that. I did like the fact that it was very easy to keep an outboard running almost anywhere in the world--everywhere has outboard mechanics, gasoline, and Yamaha parts. Diesel stuff is harder to find, but they need less in the way of repairs; however, when something goes on the diesel it tends to be much harder and more expensive to fix. Pluses and minuses.
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Old 12-02-2013, 17:19   #1794
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I'm sure I'd pick up some mileage with a diesel but we try not to motor at all. One thing I found helped was using the thin nylon prop Yamaha used to offer. I like the idea of the Newick tri Naga for cruising. Compared to that we have a truck but the light and simple approach is the same.
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Old 12-02-2013, 19:45   #1795
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I've been having fun watching videos of Scrimshaw.
It's a pure sailboat.A beautiful thing
Thae fact that I wouldn't put a brand new diesel engine in my boat if it was given to me,doesn't mean that I don't think it's a valid approach for other people.
I sailed my boat from New Zealand to Victoria BC with no engine at all.
And I was hauling ass.
thats just one trip,but I ran my boat for years and years with no engine and a bicycycle for my ground transportation
Now that I live in the Pacific Northwest,with light winds and strong currents,I grudginly have to adapt
I would suggest that anyone who really wants to learn to sail,do so without the crutch of an engine.
it can be a beautiful pure thing.
If your outboard dies,it's easily replaced anywhere on earth.
Don't believe people who tell you that you can't sail through a coral pass against a strong current..
I used to do it all the time and it was really fun to tack right in at 8 kts and anchor in the shallows in front of all the" regular" boats and watch their alarmed faces.
Using your boat without the crutch of a motor will teach you alot.
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Old 12-02-2013, 19:52   #1796
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

We are probably talking the same language here. Sailing is our main like and thats why we got a sail boat. Its nice to turn that dam diesel off and listen to the wind on the sails.
We all have similar ideals and wants. Primitive or as modern as we can afford we like the concept of being out on the water with our Trimarans. Luckily trimarans with centre boards go to windward extremely well. And Luckily Searunners have so many options. But it can be unlucky if you diverge to much from the designers original concept. You need to know more than them and that i am afraid is very unlikely.
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Old 12-02-2013, 19:56   #1797
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Good for you Sea Dragon! I've been bemused all afternoon at the concept of getting a few miles per gallon under power by trading knots per hour under sail. Our sails are primary power not the motor. It is a appliance and like most is a convenience. We work with the tides to get places, even under power. Fuel is pretty pricey stuff on a lot of levels on this planet. Still the neat thing about boating is you can get on the water any way you want.
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Old 12-02-2013, 20:07   #1798
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Rousadd, I have to tell you a story about Great Barrier Island.
I spent a month out there.
You are a very lucky person to live so close to it(60 miles?)
Smokehouse Bay is very nice with a wood fired claw foot bathtub and big scallops right under your boat.
The surfing is great also.
The fishing is great
The protected areas reminded me of Tonga.
I also loved Great Mercury Island
For those of you who havent been there,this guy is living in paradise.
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Old 12-02-2013, 20:14   #1799
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Capt.Timbo View Post
Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners
We have a Trimaran that was the eighth and final Tri of the builder, Brown-Krebs. It is a 2008, 40ft boat with a 24 ft beam.

The forward cabin has two double berths, vanity area, shower and Electro Scan, push button head. The Electro scan is one of the many upgrades that we had installed.

The aft cabin has two additional double berths, a spacious galley and dining area for six. It also host the aft engine compartment where our Yamaha 60 is fixed with easy access through the bulkhead, or from topside hatch. The engine compartment also houses our Tri-Star solar control and two of our three banks of batteries.

Wrapped around all of this are cubby holes, holds and compartments that can hold ample items. With a 6'3" head clearance throughout, we find it roomy and uncluttered. To compare it with my former 27' Hunter Mono, I would say both the forward and aft have a bit more room.

We installed an auto water maker and have a 50 gallon and 25 gallon fresh water tank. It also has a salt water pump and faucet in galley. The fuel tank is stainless steel and holds 55 gallon. Under motor, we average five miles per gallon, averaging 5 - 8 knots at 1800 rpms.

We had a power box installed with a shore power system and outlets throughout the boat and one in the cockpit.

We added a Lowrance Broadband 4G radar and upgraded our Lowrance Elite 5 GPS to a Lowrance Elite HD 2, so that it communicates with the radar. That coupled with our Auto Pilot, makes for a nice sail on long trips.

It has four Furling sails, Genoa, Jib, Cutter and Main, all controlled from within the center cockpit Under sail we averave about 12 knots, minus the Jib.

The outer Amas are sealed off from the boat, where they attach at the wings, but access to these areas are easy and you can walk from forward to aft in each one. They are great for stowing light items, bicycles, dingy motor, fuel tanks and what have you.

It does require a walk over from cabin to cabin, the only negative I can think of. We could make a pass-through which would go from beneath the berth on the port side, passing by the bulkhead of the cockpit and entering the adjoining cabin. It would come out at the deck level on either side, but it would be more of a crawl space, and probably more of a hassle than its worth.

The center board is great. When we hit a shoal the center board releases automatically and our four foot draft becomes a two and a half foot draft. This has saved us in various situations where a mono-hull would never have made it. Recently we sailed to Panama City Beach and drove the Bow up on the beach. It was easy and convenient and the launch back into the Gulf was a breeze.

Hope this helps.
Glad to hear you're happy with your boat. John Marples will be happy to verify that your boat is not a Searunner as was not built from or to plans sold by Jim Brown. Could still be a great boat and likely identical in most respects.

cheers,
Jeff Goff
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Old 13-02-2013, 04:55   #1800
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Capt.Timbo View Post
Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners
It also host the aft engine compartment where our Yamaha 60 is fixed with easy access through the bulkhead, or from topside hatch.
Capt. Timbo.
Could tou possibly post some pictures of the outboard well/engine compartment.(the more the better)
I would be very interested to see how it's built
If it's easier,I can send you my email address .What is the length of your engine compartment?
What is top speed and cruising speed with a 60 hp outboard?
is there a fairing around the shaft to minimize turbulence?
Is it built for the motor to be able to raise or tilt out of the well?
Does the well have a plug when the engine is up?If so,is it a pain to put in?
How do you flush the engine?
What length shaft d
oes the engine have?
Is there a blower in the engine compartment to put air in?
How tall is the well?What are the wells inside dimensions?
How far is the prop in front of the rudder/skeg?
In choppy conditions does water slosh onto the engine or into the engine compartment.
Does the engine cause vibration and noise in the cabin?
I have the same basic boat with a 4 ft, lazarrette behind the aft cabin.
Are you satisfied with the outboard well arraingment?
Where are your fuel tanks located?
Does the weight of the engine that far back combined with the loss of boyancy from the well adversly affect the boats performance?In other words,does the stern drag and delay rising to following seas?
If you had it to do over again,would you use a different motor arraingment?Have you used the engine in really foul conditions and if so,how did it do?
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