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Old 10-02-2013, 11:14   #1771
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

What is the overall length of that? My cockpit will be relatively short, but wide. The motors will be on either side of the cockpit.

you can email me mummservice (at) yahoo

I am going to use 2x 8hp Yamaha high thrusts. They are used 2003 motors I was practically given and are the same block and housings as the new 9.9. I figure I can atleast get all my brackets and setup worked out with these motors and then replace/ upgrade as needed to newer motor/motors in the future. There is no need to be counter rotating. That is actually going out of fashion a fair bit and almost all high speed power cats use right-hand only engines.

Honestly, if I was building a tri, I would go with a diesel. A lower hour 3GM30 is probably what I would look for. I thought about a single diesel option for the cat, but it's just not a great solution. I may eventually go with some type of electric hybrid setup at some point, but not willing to spend that until I get to use the boat some and make sure I like cats.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:43   #1772
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I would think that you might find that two 8hp are the perfect size for your boat.
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Old 10-02-2013, 13:00   #1773
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The lenght of the sled from the pivot point to the motor mount is 57 inches
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Old 10-02-2013, 16:03   #1774
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Jim has a ton of YouTubes out there with Scrimshaw, and some may have good views of his sled. Go to "OutRig" to find them...

"Gskufner" above has posted great photos of his sled in progress. Assuming that this is Jim's design... Perhaps the mold is for sale or rent, when he's done? Generally speaking, Making the mold is the hardest part. THE SLED MUST BE STRONG!

The concept is exactly the same as the sled I built on my previous SeaClipper 28, except that Jim's "better" Searunner 31 sled, is a bit longer, and has a nice "V" shape on the bottom, to break the waves. (Mine was flat). This "being longer" also gives the Searunner version a lower angle of attack when lowered. These two features would reduce the annoying wave slap that my version was prone too. It was only an annoyance, but the new version is decidedly better. EITHER WILL SLAP!

The top of the sled should be covered, btw., (to minimize water entrapment) except where you need a recess for the motor's head, when it's kicked up. Be sure that this recess drains! Also, the lifting hardware should be STRONG!

Mine was quite effective for putzing up rivers, the ICW, or Hawk Channel in the Keys, even for running inlets, Offshore... There are limitations with any OB kicker, like in a really nasty seaway, or when motorsailing with the motor on the windward side. Then cavitation is the name of the game. In these really nasty conditions, you must run at just about half throttle, so that when the prop jumps out, (like every 5 seconds), it will not over rev the engine into oblivion! The same will be true with Jim's improved version, but it IS vastly superior to a stern mounted OB kicker, due to avoiding the much worse motion further aft, and relative inaccessibility back there.

In my case, the side mount had very little tendency to motor in circles as one might assume it would. I had a quick release "lock" on the motor direction angle, and I tweeked it's position to a perfect compensating angle, (about 5 degrees off of dead center). When docking, I unlocked it and could turn both the tiller and motor together, for incredible maneuverability, in forward OR reverse. (Much harder to accomplish on a Searunner)

Bottom line:
These OB kickers are no replacements for a proper inboard diesel for long distance cruising, but for weekending & daysailing, they work just fine, and far better than when they were on the old stern mount.

They have an "initial" cost advantage, but over decades, the Diesel actually cost less. (Sooner than that, if you count the diesel's much lower fuel costs). On the other hand, the OB has the advantage of being easy to take for service, has "0" drag when raised, and accumulates "0" growth.

I loved mine, and for the SC 28, it was perfect, (except Jim's later version of sled would've been a bit better). I think it would be a bit "less than perfect" on the SR 25 or 31, but plenty good enough, taking into account the caveats that I mentioned. I "personally" would not consider an OB kicker on the larger Searunners. People do it, sure, but they are extremely limited in their utility. The design just doesn't lend itself to it.

My kicker was a 105lb. Yamaha 9.9 SailDrive. This is the ONLY motor that I would consider. When the boat was empty, it would motor my SeaClipper, Mana Loa, @ > 10 knots! It could actually motor her forward, (at a crawl), into 40 knots of wind. These are VERY high thrust engines, much more so than larger "standard" OB engines.

These have a very long shaft already, as well as a HUGE prop spinning slow, VS a small prop spinning fast, and are geared for this. IMO...You do NOT need a bigger, more powerful engine, even on the 31, and should NOT have a heavier engine mounted on this sled.

On our Searunners... Using bigger OB motors than the SailDrive 9.9, Or God forbid, multiple sleds with multiple OB motors, gets into MORE money and complication than installing a proper inboard diesel. With really large, or multiple OB motors, you would have all of the the expense, but with half the utility at sea, and 1/3rd the engine lifespan.

Large racing, or small cruising cats, are a different story. For them, twin OB kickers, (used mostly just for docking on the big ones), make good sense, for "some" designs, like the dive boat cattlemarans in the Keys.

Jeff's Vardo cruising cat also seems like a good candidate for twin 9.9 SailDrives. Except when in in a nasty seaway, It would be just short of a motorsailor.

Hope this helps.
Mark
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Old 10-02-2013, 16:22   #1775
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Excellent posting Mark , your remarks are very honest. I like how you are proud of your accomplishments and also passing on your knowledge helping others from going through costly mistakes and hour and hours of work that if done differently or with different materials lasts longer with a better result. I know there are so many ways to finish and create these Trimarans.. Amazing really what fantastic ships they are with so many interesting spots and places to achieve something new or something incredible user friendly. Searunners are great for this apparently with a safety record second to none... Quote ..... John Marples

Thanks Ross,
I'm never trying to push my views on anyone, just help where I can...
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Old 10-02-2013, 17:40   #1776
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thanks for the pictures Mark.
I'm visuilizing something closer to the side of the center hull.
Like right against it with a fairing of some type.
Having it that far away from the centerline would be a big problem on a tack that raised the ama on that side.
too much clearance and cavitation.
I emailed Marples about it.
I was thinking you could use the same basic principle to build a lowering high class boarding ladder with a handrail and everything.
Maybe with a trip line a swimmer could operate.
I rowed out to my boat today and two big ravens landed on the boat followed by two big Bald Eagles buzzing the boat.
15 minutes later,a big otter came up on deck via the lowered outboard bracket.
He was looking in the back window and I was looking out,but he couldn't see me because of the reflection and tinted windows.We were nose to nose.
I came out on deck and he sauntered slowly over the side.
Life in the Pacific Northwest
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Old 11-02-2013, 03:59   #1777
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I have the mounted just like Jim Brown has it on his SR 31. You can see that on outrig.org.
I am not sure A 25 hp motor would not be to heavy for the sled.
The sled is raised with a pully system attached to the sled and to the aft pulpit.
Slamming is less of a problem, but What Mark says about heavy seaway is true, the motor cavitates.
On a 31 inboard diesel in not pratical, because of weight and alck of space.
On a 40 foot Searunner, i would not use outboards.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:23   #1778
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Seadragon, I'm currently toying with such a platform. It will be mounted at the aft deck between the starboard float and the main hull. The port aft deck is the R.I.B. station, where it lives when not in the water. The platform will have treads and will have a base allowing me to lower it just under water to make diving much easier, or by raising it a foot or so, to make loading and unloading passengers and gear more securely. It will also be a great help in retrieving an overboard crew member. I'm looking at fabricating foam elements, with graphite where needed, and Spectra lines for support. Low weight, instant deployability in all sea conditions (when hove to or at anchor), and the ability to enhance my experience as I get much older. I built one, several years ago, out of teak and bronze fittings, for a customer who had had polio as a child. I haven't stopped thinking about it since, trying to cut the weight and make it easy to use by anyone.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:23   #1779
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Sea Dragon...

OB SLEDS Continued:
The"sled" bracket that I had on Mana Loa was asymmetrical to its forward beam mounts, and the motor itself was absolutely as close to the hull (at the cockpit's cap rail) as it could be, (perhaps within 1/2"?), and still allow me to raise the motor WAY out of the water, when it got bad. A nacelle would have lessened wave slap a bit, otherwise, the concept's the same.

The SeaClipper's flared hull topsides are quite different from a Searunner's more vertical topsides, so this may not have been apparent in previous photos. You are absolutely right, that the closer to the CL the better.

ABOUT LARGER SEARUNNERS:
The issue with Searunners regarding size, is that only the "A frame" models really lend themselves to this sled's attachment far enough forward, and give easy access to the motor if it's mounted here. You don't want a sled hanging aft of a "winged" SR, as this is too far aft to reap the benefit of less pitching.

This issue, and engine size to boat size compatibility, are good reasons to limit OB motors to the 25 & 31'ers, imo...

Larger/standard OB motors are not a good idea, VS the 9.9 SailDrive, due to the additional weight of the motor, making them harder to kick up, harder to raise and lower the sled, putting that much weight in a bad place, etc. Also, the 9.9 SailDrive may have as much thrust or MORE, (at low boat speeds), as a standard 25 hp motor!

BOARDING LADDERS:
I often have mine with a swimmers grab line, that will pull it down in emergencies, because the plastic hook that holds it up will break. Then the fold is just above the waterline, I hinge it down into the water, and have a couple of steps under water as well. It is both simple, light, and very easy to use.

I once thought of a true "step style" ladder, that would be hinged from the front of the 34s vent hole, and swung down at an angle into the water when needed. When the ladder was raised, I would then cover the vent hole and the ladder with a lid of slats. It seemed like a good idea at the time...

After years with our current boarding ladder, I see the fallacy of the first idea, IF one gets in the water in rough conditions, (Like I do). As the boat pitches, the ladder goes up and down very quickly, and as the boat rolls, the ladder goes side to side very quickly, It needs to have absolutely the lowest water resistance to allow for this. The loads are considerable! The location so near the CL helps, and flat rungs are both less water resistance, AND easy on bare feet.

Also, while anchored, I often get in the water with a current running. With any larger rungs OR larger sides, it would fold up. Even this one tries to do this a bit.

As you see, the upper round over hand holds make getting out a cinch, as they offer upper body support, even when my knees are level with the deck.

In an emergency, and I HAD to dive on the hull... I have used this at sea, in 38 knot winds and 14' chaotic waves. It was not easy, and I had to be very careful NOT to be impaled or brained by the hull as it pitched violently, but I could still board with this ladder.

Now many "more sane" folks would never try this, and only need a ladder in flat calm anchorages, during good weather, and with no current. For them a larger step style ladder may well be more comfortable. On the other hand, for a diving fool like me, who anchors out in a 2' chop, and free dives in it all day long, the lower resistance drop ladder is the only way to go. It also has true "emergency use potential", that the larger boarding steps do not...

Things to consider...
M.
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Old 11-02-2013, 13:44   #1780
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

People with larger searunners who want a sled might think about modifiying the wing/cabin structure so the pivot is at the main strength beam and the unit retracts into a wing apeture with the motor head tucked next to the stern castle lounge. This gives you the motor geometry of the 31 and keeps the sled level with the wing bottom when retracted so when sailing it won't pound any more than the normal wing bottom. You might lose some bin storage but the unit can be next to the hull.
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Old 11-02-2013, 21:37   #1781
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Cool Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[QUOTE=Mark Johnson;1154285]
Larger/standard OB motors are not a good idea, VS the 9.9 SailDrive, due to the additional weight of the motor, making them harder to kick up, harder to raise and lower the sled, putting that much weight in a bad place, etc. Also, the 9.9 SailDrive may have as much thrust or MORE, (at low boat speeds), as a standard 25 hp motor!

Mark,
My motor is a25hp high thrustYamaha
2 1/2 times the power and thrust of the 9.9
The motor has power tilt so that's not a problem
Raising it will be easy as pie with a winch.
The weight is thee same as me sitting in the sterncastle which has almost No effect on the boat at all
I got the plans for the sled from Marples
It's really cool
I'm going to build a sled on each side of the boat and put my 9.9 high thrust spare on the other side
If one side is getting pounded, i can use the other lee engine up to a point.The small one will be usefull for trolling for salmon.
The second powerplant will also add confidence and peace of mind.
If conditions are favorable and I want to make miles,I will run twins(a total of 35 high thrust horsepower.In other words 3 1/2 Yamaha 9.9s
The sleds I will build will be longer and quite a bit stronger.
Cavalier:
Thats a very good idea!I was thinking along the same lines
With all due respect,theres more than one way to skin a cat.Or power a trimaran.
I'm going to do it my way
Roy:
That sounds like something worthwhile about a lowering boarding ladder
The bigger searunners have really high freeboard and are hard to board
Let me know what you come up with.
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Old 11-02-2013, 21:57   #1782
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Its always more fun that way anyhow. I was thinking a bit of the F27 but Ian Farrier didn't use a sled. It is a integrated approach, taking advantage of the wing deck instead of it being an obstacle. When I relocate the Nicol's OB it will actually tuck into stern cabin overhang and need a top access hatch. The advantage is it's also out of sight and mind when in harbors.
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Old 11-02-2013, 21:57   #1783
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I had a sail drive in my SR31 lost my settee to a permanent berth now in 6 months putting back my settee, table and berth and mounting a bracket on a track.

Years back I had a cross 28 with a pod. it worked great till it would swamp and soak the coil on the motor.

My Piver 31 had a transom mounted track. This was the best never swamped it and could pull it up nice and high out of the water
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:11   #1784
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My point about OB motors used on trimarans were directed "only" to those who had not yet mounted one, OR made up their minds. I would never criticize something that a fellow Searunner owner has, and is happy with the results.

My comments are, btw, based on many years of experience, having built and lived with both types. My previous TWO multihulls had kickers on sleds...

We can do what ever we want with our boats for sure, but at some point it makes more sense "to me", to just remove the entire rig, and build a nice protected pilot house, and surrounded it with opening glass ports. If a powerboat is what one wants, why not make a nice comfortable one, right? Or... cut the rig in half for emergency needs only, and make a motorsailor out of her? Nothing wrong with that.

For "cruisers" considering an OB kicker:
What is different about the 9.9 HP "saildrive" kicker, is that it has a very large, high pitch prop, geared way down to turn slowly, on a very long shaft, with a locking head, and very heavy duty bracket. It was designed specifically to push a big heavy boat slowly, (like @ 6-8 knots). Larger "Standard" OB motors, even if "called" high thrust, have small props spinning very fast, to push small fishing boats very fast, (like > 20-30 mph). If a larger "standard" motor puts out twice as much HP, against a hull that will only go so fast due to its size and weight, the extra power is 90% wasted, as the prop spins its brains out mostly cavitateing, while burning HUGE amounts of fuel.
Point being, that for pushing a sailboat slowly, the 9.9 "saildrive" has light weight, economy in buying the engine AND fuel consumption, is light weight, and has thrust far disproportionate to its 9.9 hp would indicate.

Without a doubt:
(On a Searunner that is large enough to accommodate one), IF IT IS INTENDED AS A WORLD CRUISER "sailboat", an inboard diesel engine will be more useful. in a broader context, for many more years, at a fraction of the operating cost. That only means that, by comparison, an OB motor is quite a compromise, not "more" utilitarian.

Once one considers "dual sleds" with dual OB motors, then all of the OBs advantages become null & void. (You loose the cost, weight, installation time, and simplicity advantage).

COMPARED TO AN INBOARD DIESEL:
This dual/aft sled set up will take longer to build and install, it will be heavier, and ultimately, more expensive too. It will be fiddly and complicated to use in a gale at sea, or running an inlet in breaking surf. It will also be fairly useless motorsailing in 15' waves to pinch tighter, when trying to make that emergency landfall. Operating costs, over decades, will be far more than with a proper diesel installation. The OB motors will have 1/4th of the service life as well. It is just not a third world tropical "cruising" set up.

WEIGHT:
Weight on the ends of the boat or up the rig, have a HUGE effect on pitching and pounding. I have been trying to rest, in a fetal position, in the sterncastle's footwell, and simply could not, due to the ruckus going on, when on a windward coarse, in a full gale. Simply moving a single jug of water from the bow, and one from the stern, toward the middle. changed the motion quite a bit. These are facts, not opinions...

Now all I can do is describe the pros and cons IF one intends their Searunner to be a "good sailing serious cruiser" as designed. Some folks have ditched the rig and made multi story houseboats on Searunner hulls, others have made various modifications that specialize the boat for motorsailing only, fishing, or palatial accommodations. All of these are fine, if that is what they want.

These specialized craft are then "something entirely different", hopefully perfect for the owners particular need, and none of my comments apply to them.

My apologies if there was confusion in these, or any other comments that I have made. They all come with a qualification:

IF YOU PLAN ON LONG RANGE "CRUISING" WITH YOUR SEARUNNER, AS THE PRIMARY USE, THEN...

I have no problem at all with folks that do "other things" with their boats than the above, but for them I have no comment, simply because I have nothing useful to say about their specialized needs. If my pro/con comparisons (meant only for the undecided "cruiser" crowd) were misinterpreted as being directed to the already decided "specialized" crowd... No offense or harsh judgement toward you was intended.

Like I said: My comments were simply "not meant for you guys", and I'm sure that your boat will be fine "for you", no matter what you do to it. Inventing and innovation is half the fun, right?

Kindest regards all,
Mark
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:51   #1785
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners
We have a Trimaran that was the eighth and final Tri of the builder, Brown-Krebs. It is a 2008, 40ft boat with a 24 ft beam.

The forward cabin has two double berths, vanity area, shower and Electro Scan, push button head. The Electro scan is one of the many upgrades that we had installed.

The aft cabin has two additional double berths, a spacious galley and dining area for six. It also host the aft engine compartment where our Yamaha 60 is fixed with easy access through the bulkhead, or from topside hatch. The engine compartment also houses our Tri-Star solar control and two of our three banks of batteries.

Wrapped around all of this are cubby holes, holds and compartments that can hold ample items. With a 6'3" head clearance throughout, we find it roomy and uncluttered. To compare it with my former 27' Hunter Mono, I would say both the forward and aft have a bit more room.

We installed an auto water maker and have a 50 gallon and 25 gallon fresh water tank. It also has a salt water pump and faucet in galley. The fuel tank is stainless steel and holds 55 gallon. Under motor, we average five miles per gallon, averaging 5 - 8 knots at 1800 rpms.

We had a power box installed with a shore power system and outlets throughout the boat and one in the cockpit.

We added a Lowrance Broadband 4G radar and upgraded our Lowrance Elite 5 GPS to a Lowrance Elite HD 2, so that it communicates with the radar. That coupled with our Auto Pilot, makes for a nice sail on long trips.

It has four Furling sails, Genoa, Jib, Cutter and Main, all controlled from within the center cockpit Under sail we averave about 12 knots, minus the Jib.

The outer Amas are sealed off from the boat, where they attach at the wings, but access to these areas are easy and you can walk from forward to aft in each one. They are great for stowing light items, bicycles, dingy motor, fuel tanks and what have you.

It does require a walk over from cabin to cabin, the only negative I can think of. We could make a pass-through which would go from beneath the berth on the port side, passing by the bulkhead of the cockpit and entering the adjoining cabin. It would come out at the deck level on either side, but it would be more of a crawl space, and probably more of a hassle than its worth.

The center board is great. When we hit a shoal the center board releases automatically and our four foot draft becomes a two and a half foot draft. This has saved us in various situations where a mono-hull would never have made it. Recently we sailed to Panama City Beach and drove the Bow up on the beach. It was easy and convenient and the launch back into the Gulf was a breeze.

Hope this helps.
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