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Old 28-01-2013, 11:26   #1666
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
Hmmmm... Now you've got me thinking of simply changing my 50' mast for a 54', instead of just overhauling. John Marples, are you out there lurking? Do you have a mast layout for this? I'm willing to pay for it if you do.
Roy,
I started the thinking process on this in 1991 or so, and after a long phone call with John, explaining that I wanted BOTH efficiency and easy to handle, he gave me the new specs. (Things like height, spreader location changes, extrusion moments of inertia, etc). He felt that the 34 was way under canvassed, as previously drawn.

I then copied the plans, (with permission), and used "white out" on the previously drawn rig. Next I copied this sheet, "sans rig", and on the new sheet drew the proposed mast, (to scale of coarse). This was sent to John to double check everything, and it was deemed perfect.

By getting his hours down and doing the drawing myself, it was a trivial charge, all things considered.

If you are considering such a large renovation, all I can say is, go for it!

I had over 40 fractures in my testosterone poisoned youth, and 20 years ago could see the writing on the wall. I'm still "strong like bull", but my aches and pains make staying in the cockpit at sea look better all the time.

By going taller on the rig, my "lapper" has about as much area as the original "genoa", but it is built like a tank. (Neil Pride blue water version)

One one ocassion... In a sudden microburst over 50 or 60 mph, under FULL sail, the ama deck went under, just a bit, before I could head off, LIKE A ROCKET! The mainsail broke a batten, but the "lapper" was fine.

Sailing as a sloop, but with this 8 knots to 35 knots, multi use "lapper", covers 99% of our cruising. The "asymmetrical spinnaker" and "staysail" cover the other rare extremes quite well.

I suspect that your 40 could handle a longer stick quite well, and if the extrusion is still available, splicing on another 6' is no big deal at all. Ours has an 8' spliced on section welded at the gooseneck, as the skinny extrusion was only available up to 40'. The doubled up weld does not show at all! We considered the next extrusion up, but it was too heavy, so we keep our rig in tune, and it works fine.

That begs the question for you of whether spreader locations would need to be moved or not, extrusion size being sufficient, rigging size, etc...

I can offer several tips, but these engineering questions are better answered by John. Call him for a consultation. You will know right away if it is for you.

For us... It litterally makes the boat!

ONE CORRECTION: Our mast ht "above water" is 50' for the stick, & 53' counting the vhf antennae. JUST the extrusion itself is 48' long, or 4.5' longer than the 43.5' stick originally drawn.

M.
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Old 28-01-2013, 12:06   #1667
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea dragon View Post
I've already got the 54 ft.mast.
I've been talking to my brother about senior sailing modifications,and roller furling was the first thing he mentioned.His contention is that:
"A fat old man has no buiseness out on the bow changing sails in a storm"
Any op[nions on a good furler for a 40 ft tri?
Sea Dragon... Your brother has a point!

Roller furling brand??? You can't go wrong with ProFurl. If the sail is built for it, you can roll up the forward 1/3rd portion, and sail into the high 30s. After that, you really need to strike it and raise the staysail. It isn't about sail "area" as much as location. This levels the boat right out, and pounding is vastly reduced.

Since the "0" Gs is worse out on the bow, and there are handholds on the cabin perimeter, going to the staysail bag is a much lower "sphincter factor".

If it is already hanked on, and the sheets are run, then snapping on a halyard, and snatching off the bag, only take 15 seconds or so. Then you can raise it from the cockpit.

As we age, sailing can actually get safer! It just requires sailing smarter, that's all. When I was young, doing handstands on deck, or climbing a spare halyard hand over hand, helped break up the boredom. When I crashed into the upper spreaders, it helped break up my sternum too. I have no doubt that sailing is safer now, at least for me.
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Old 28-01-2013, 12:31   #1668
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hello Searunner Peeps,
Anyone have any advice on cabin heater options for a SR 25? I think the force 10 is over sized for the space and would only heat one end of the boat without some type of Amp sucking fan. My plans include a lot of Alaska cruising and from what I understand it is a little colder in that part of the world.

Questions:

a. Have you owned or seen any SR 25's with a heating system

b. You own a SR 31 ~ 40 with some type of low or no amp transfer of heat from for to aft etc.

Thanks for all of the super SR posts.
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Old 28-01-2013, 14:53   #1669
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Excellent Mark i like your thoughts and idea's.
I like to have two forstays. One for a furler and the other to hank on.
This also gives a stronger mast stayed, including the back stays.
the Staysail i beleive needs to be a furler also and used in combination or on its own.
Nice sense of humour there Sea Dragon, can see your hooked.
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Old 28-01-2013, 20:10   #1670
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

well, I don't have much experience with roller reefing systems.
The concept is intriguing,but a few things bother me.
1.the price,That's alot of money!
2.Weight aloft.
I got caught in the tail end of a cyclone between NZ and Tonga and had to run down the huge waves with just a tiny storm jib for a few days.
Looking back on it,I wouldn't have wanted the weight and windage of a furler and sail up there
3.Sail area aloft.
As you furl the sail,it gets higher off the deck.
That doesn't seem to be an optimal situation.
As the wind increases,you want the smaller sail lower to the deck,not higher
4.Complexity vs simplicity
Jib hanks are very simple.Roller reefing is very complex
5.sail shape
would a furling lapper be as efficient and fast as multiple headsails?
I could be wrong about this stuff,but thought I would share what I think could be some possible downsides
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Old 28-01-2013, 21:09   #1671
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbat View Post
Hello Searunner Peeps,
Anyone have any advice on cabin heater options for a SR 25? I think the force 10 is over sized for the space and would only heat one end of the boat without some type of Amp sucking fan. My plans include a lot of Alaska cruising and from what I understand it is a little colder in that part of the world.

Questions:

a. Have you owned or seen any SR 25's with a heating system

b. You own a SR 31 ~ 40 with some type of low or no amp transfer of heat from for to aft etc.

Thanks for all of the super SR posts.
Slowboat -

I have never seen a 25' with a real heater.
In mine I used a little catalytic tent heater like this one,

I used to strap it down it in the forepeak or footwell area, with beckson ports and 1+ hatch board out for draft. I also used it in the cockpit under a boom tent with lots of air.
There is a nicer model with a battery-powered fan.
Good enough for maintenance, but I would not trust it for sleeping, and I'm not sure it would keep up with Alaskan temps.
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Old 28-01-2013, 22:49   #1672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Otter Jim View Post
I also have a searunner 37 ,I have been looking at this thread for quite a while but have not posted.I bought Walking Bird from Joe Hudson in 1999.Joe and Jim Brown had cruised the sea of cortez 95-99 in the boat and then joe sold her to me.It was called tri essence and launched in 1976.She was the first brown searunner built of west epoxy.Joe had said something about John Marples changing the transome on boat for more lift.Lots of great info here.I use to own a 31 vent wing that was built for hustler magazine and painted pink called she's easy.I live in La Paz Mexico.
long live Sea Otter. Best regards, Greig
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Old 29-01-2013, 09:18   #1673
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by sea dragon View Post
well, I don't have much experience with roller reefing systems.
The concept is intriguing,but a few things bother me.
1.the price,That's alot of money!
2.Weight aloft.
I got caught in the tail end of a cyclone between NZ and Tonga and had to run down the huge waves with just a tiny storm jib for a few days.
Looking back on it,I wouldn't have wanted the weight and windage of a furler and sail up there
3.Sail area aloft.
As you furl the sail,it gets higher off the deck.
That doesn't seem to be an optimal situation.
As the wind increases,you want the smaller sail lower to the deck,not higher
4.Complexity vs simplicity
Jib hanks are very simple.Roller reefing is very complex
5.sail shape
would a furling lapper be as efficient and fast as multiple headsails?
I could be wrong about this stuff,but thought I would share what I think could be some possible downsides

I will try to address your concerns...

RELIABILITY:
These were all valid 35 or so years ago perhaps, but VERY few modern boats these days, even the circumnavigators, would be concerned at all with the downsides of roller furling/reefing headsails. The robust models, like Profurl, are quite reliable, more so than piston hanks that corrode.

SAFETY:
Remember, the question was how to "stay off of the bow" in a storm or sudden squall. Roller furling allows this, and hank on does not.

HIGHER COE:
The sail moving up as it is reefed is relatively minimal, (10%?) because if one only reefs about 30% (max), you are talking a couple of feet. Reefing a LOT, like 2/3rds, would ONLY be done down wind, when the center of effort up high is just not an issue. The suggestion of a roller furling lapper, (shaped like a yankee), eliminates the need to adjust the sheet lead cars as it is reefed...

SHAPE & PERFORMANCE:
The shape of our lapper is perfect, (best I have seen on a cruiser), and even "close to perfect" when roller reefed a couple of feet. This is due to the foam strips sewn into the luff of the sail, and because with a lapper, VS a genny, you only roll it in 2 or 3', before rolling it up entirely. You then raise the staysail, to be used with or without the reefed main, (in over 35 knots of wind).

Our performance under sail is BETTER than multiple hanked on sails, (on a 1,000 mile passage), due to the convenience of dialing in the right amount of throttle, day & night, day after day. Going to windward, in just 8 knots of apparent wind, we are indeed slower than a nice hanked on gennoa. This is our weak point. Thing is, this seldom happens at sea for more than an hour. Daysailing here in the Neuse River, we would not be as fast to windward in a zephyr, untill we fall off to a tight reach and beyond. Then we'd raise our flatish asymmetrical spinaker in a sock, and easily smoke the guy up ahead with just a genoa. It's a trade off, but we have NEVER missed hanked on sails.

WEIGHT:
Between hanked on and rollerfurling, the weight on the bow is close to the same. In fact, with hanked on, it may actually be more. With my previous cutter rigged boat, (that did have hanked on), I always kept the unused headsail lashed down on one bow rail side, when the other was aloft, OR lashed down on the other bow rail side. The weight of the extra sail on the bow was close to or more than the weight of roller furling.

WEIGHT ALOFT:
True, having the rolled up sail aloft is not good, but this is an acceptable downside for the benefit. REMEMBER... Under no circumstances do I advocate sailing in a storm with a heavily rolled up headsail. (= > 1/3rd reefed)

WHEN TO FURL:
Unless it is a very short term thunder storm, when I'm in over 35 knots of wind, or over 8' waves, I totally strike the roller furled lapper, (in 30 seconds, by myself, from the cockpit), then I raise the already hanked on staysail. It is the best of all worlds.

EASE OF FURLING:
By having the roller furling line run through a "clutch", and NOT using a winch... I can (while still steering), head up for a second, pull the line 2' with my free hand, and then fall off to keep sailing. The line can be released between pulls, and the clutch bears the load. After doing this several times, the sail is rolled up with no drama. In a sudden gale, we turn downwind and blanket the headsail, then pull it in hand over hand, easily. It amazingly took us 10,000 sea miles to adopt this, but it takes the drama out of striking the sail.

ROLLER FURLING MAINS:
Due to weight aloft, IF one had deep pockets, and wanted a roller furling main as well, I would opt for a modern roller furling boom, RATHER than the "in mast" version. I have friends who circumnavigated their small (5' headroom) cat with one of these, and it would not have been prudent on that boat without it. For Searunners under the 40'er, I think it is overkill, because the roach is minimal, as is the relative size of the sail.

COSTS:
Cost is always an issue, but you have to compare honestly. When I bought our ProFurl unit, the retail was just over $2,000, but JSI was selling it for HALF of that. ($1,100) If we had opted for hank on sails, the cost of the EXTRA sail, (to have a genny & yankee), would be about $800. So yes, the roller furling with ONE multi use sail costs more, but counting the roller unit, blocks, clutch, & line... It adds up to about $500 more.

DOUBLE PARALLEL HEADSTAYS:
Many have used double headstays with two hank on sails ready to raise. This works OK on large high end monohulls, but is problematic on our Searunners.
The issue is that there is a limit on the amount of permanent static load that these hulls should have to bear. If you figure a static load on your headstay of say, 800#s, (to keep it tight when going to windward), then you decide to double up the headstays for convenience sake... EITHER the wire you have the active sail on now has just 400# of static load, (allowing sag), OR you crank up the tension for 800# on each wire, causing a colossal 1,600#s of total static load between them. THAT'S TO MUCH! The compression on the mast is the sum of the static load on ALL of the wires!

HOW COULD IT BE DONE:
IF one opts for double headstays, I would have them with quick adjust turnbuckles, like my staysail stay, and normally kept just snug. Then, when sailing only, put 5 turns on JUST the loaded forestay. This of coarse, raises the complication and cost to much higher, than a single lapper on a rollerfurling unit, like we use.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT:
IF you want an old age boat, and to minimize time spent on the bow, a rollerfurling headsail is the cornerstone!

M.
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Old 29-01-2013, 09:51   #1674
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

PERFORMANCE:
As you see below, we are in almost flat seas, and still moving along at 5 or 6 knots. Normally we sail between 7 and 9 knots, 24/7. The point in cruising is not top speed, it's the "absence of going slow", and maintaining a good average speed. Our last big trip from Trinidad to the Beaufort NC inlet, in 3 legs over just 12 sea days, was a good average speed, that far exceeds ANY full time liveaboard, 34' cruising monohull.

OFF THE WIND IN A BLOW:
For those with Searunners making a long, fast, down wind passage, like circumnavigators often do, rollerfurling has another advantage. You can strike the main, and sail wing and wing with double headsails. The larger headsail can be left on a whiskerpole that is rigged up for the duration of your down wind run, even weeks! If the pole is guyed up, it is self supporting and can be adjustable, even if fixed. You have a snatch block dangling from the pole's jaws, by a strong control line that is run to a cleat at the base of the pole. The headsail's sheet runs through this snatch block, for "0" chafe! Then, as you need to reef or even strike the headsail, the whisker pole swings forward, and as the size of the exposed sail is reduced, the snatch block's control line is easily adjustable.

What an adaptable rig!!!

M.
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Old 29-01-2013, 10:19   #1675
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Excellent posting mark.and thank you much for taking the time to share your thoughts. Modern sail cuts and new combinations are obviously superior for a bariety of conditions. Cruising again makes a different kind of sail. I can see many trimaraners are very much to a low budget cause lets face it searunners come cheap. What ever you have aloft one thing for sure is to bear off when trying to point amd let the boat move faster. Also going downwind it is better to veer off directly down wind. What do you think with these searunners.
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Old 29-01-2013, 12:13   #1676
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Excellent posting mark.and thank you much for taking the time to share your thoughts. Modern sail cuts and new combinations are obviously superior for a bariety of conditions. Cruising again makes a different kind of sail. I can see many trimaraners are very much to a low budget cause lets face it searunners come cheap. What ever you have aloft one thing for sure is to bear off when trying to point amd let the boat move faster. Also going downwind it is better to veer off directly down wind. What do you think with these searunners.
Since these are cruising boats, I tend to focus on just that aspect of rigging them. If one REALLY wants performance, then these are the wrong boat. The design is full of compromises in the name of comfort, safety, storage, etc...

For a nice but "toy" daysailor, and occasional local cruiser, Farriers will blow our doors off, as will a lightly loaded but "real" performance boat like a Newick. Old high performance racing tris sell for a really good price, because if they no longer win races, and make a poor cruiser, they're a "white elephant". If I only went on daysails for the fun of sailing, there are some old Newick wing AKA Vals, or Tricias out there, at a good price. Hmmm?

I do still find our Searunner to be a blast for daysails, but when we daysail, it's for the social life with others, or just the experience of being on the water again. Taking off for days, weeks, or years, is where Searunners shine! For me, cruising is mostly about the diving in clear tropical water. Searunners are the ULTIMATE dive boat!

Our rig's lapper is perhaps not quite as tight winded as a genoa, due to the required sheet angle, but we have confirmed with the computer/GPS track, that we consistently track through 90 degrees made good. We can sail tighter, like 35 to 37 degrees to the apparent wind, but this really slows us down. If we fall of to 40, or even 45 degrees, she picks right up.

Same for tacking down wind with lapper and main. Tacking down wind is faster than dead down wind wing & wing, but tacking takes a longer distance. You have to consider your destination & projected elapsed time, to decide which is best. For standard wing & wing on a Searunner, the main can't swing out enough, and is small enough, that it is too little sail area as well. It also requires going almost dead downwind, to prevent backing the main.

If the duration of the leg warrants it, raising the spinnaker works GREAT, and is far better than on a monohull, with all of that obnoxious rolling they do.

Our fastest daysail passage was from Cat/Gun Cays in the Bahamas to Biscayne Bay Fl. in over 13' Gulf Stream waves. It normally is an overnighter, but we left at first light and had the hook down by mid day! We were on a run, but about 30 degrees off, in 35 knots of wind. Delphys stayed in double digits all day, mostly in the teens. The following day, it was still blowing, and Delphys was wing and wing (with headsails only), going down Hawk Channel in the Fl. Keys. (Photo above with me on the bow) That was mostly dead down wind, at well over 10 knots. We were home in Marathon that afternoon, rather than the next day!
These great sails are the exception, however, not the rule.

Sail tactics and combinations change so much with the situation... We were doing 5 days from Glovers Reef Belize once, and got in a strong cold front while crossing the Yucatan current. The seas were HORRIBLE, right on the nose, for the last two days. Falling off would set us back for weeks, and possibly require crossing the Gulf, so we just sucked it up and carried on. The last day I resorted to mororsailing @ half throttle, as this made the boat point 5 degrees tighter, (so we could lay the Dry Tortugas)... The seas were SO bad that the prop would occasionally suck air and cavitate! (I had to dive over the side in 15' seas, to watch the prop spinning and figure this out)! This motorsailing tactic, to pinch even tighter, has saved us from much longer asswhippins on several occasions, and is a GOOD reason to have an inboard diesel installation.

If I tire of cruising, and only daysail in my old age, I would consider stripping the boat of cruising extras, and installing a short carbon bowsprit. From this I would fly a screecher, on DUX line, with a roller drum, like Jack Molan has in the past. This would normally be a loose piece of rigging, as is is not for going hard to windward. The sail would have to be rolled up to tack it through the slot of coarse.

Things like this idea are great fun, but it is still just a cruising boat. There are a lot of ideas that work. I've had the privilege of knowing some truly brilliant Searunner brethren, and we talked adnauseoum about the dozens of things that they/we have all tried, or might try next... just passing on the lore!

M.
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Old 29-01-2013, 12:18   #1677
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thank you Mark for the thought that went into your reply.
I'm a dated guy with dated ideas on a dated boat...
But that doesn't mean I can't learn.
Rossad hit the nail on the head,
With two teenagers,a house,a scary amount of bills,etc,etc
At this point in life(and every other point till now) now that I think of it...
Keeping the boat going on a shoestring is my ONLY option.
some examples:
I have keept it at anchor for the last 12 years,which got rid of the breathtaking cost of keeping a huge wide boat at a dock.
Besides beachings,I have only hauled out once during that time.
My only auxilliary propulsion is a 9.9 outboard.(yes,I know all the reasons why that's not good enough,but after years of cruising thousands of miles with no engine at all,it works pretty damn well for me.
Like I said in an earlier post,upgrading my tired old sails is a big hurdle I need to overcome.
There is no way in hell I can afford new ones,so the hunt for used sails will soon begin in earnest, .
I'm not crying about life, mind you.
Life is great.
I'm dreaming of heading back out to the west coast of Vancouver Island again this year.
God's Country!
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Old 29-01-2013, 17:54   #1678
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark
I see you got those same air little vents like mine.
with a gauze on top and they open from the inside
Mine have broken and collapsed inside with the plastic seethrough.
I dont think you can get them or parts any more
I was thinking of replacing them with another kind of vent.
Any recommendations.
Ross
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Old 29-01-2013, 18:05   #1679
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

for a heater, I would recommend an Origo heatpal, but for a Searunner 25 I think you really need to keep the extras off for a long cruise. you either need good sleeping bags or a bigger boat. The new propane outboards would make a single fuel cooking/ outboard a good choice.

Mark- do you have anymore Magic Carpet photos? Especially of the cockpit?

cheers,
Jeff
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Old 29-01-2013, 21:00   #1680
Senior Cruiser

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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eastern Seaboard
Boat: Searunner 34 and Searunner Constant Camber 44
Posts: 949
Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Update on the Searunner Owner's Group: It's bad and ugly.

But it will get better as I learn more about Drupal, CSS, Panels and Views.

Honestly, I wouldn't have said anything now but it looks like Roy M stopped by. I have a lot more content that I can't get to display right now. That mean a lot of articles by John, the design with some photos. Next will be a forum for builders & stuff specific to Searunner/Seaclipper/Constant Camber boats. Oh and the actual owners' list. I have a limited start on it but could use some input. Actually, I'll take input on any aspect realizing that I'm slow, doing it as a labor of love and it's John's site so he has the final say.

As I mentioned before, I think it's important to not take away from this forum because it's a home for so many. Also the sheer strength of this topic speaks to the Searunner community writ large and is essentially advertisement for the line during each post.

So, ugly and slow. Even a bit slower since tomorrow will be nice weather here and I'll be building a 20'x4' table for the SC20 I should have finished by now but couldn't since I've moved. But I really need to get the site up so a) I don't look like an idiot and b) I can start a thread on building a SC20 for the other 28 out there and perhaps get some help along the way.

Oh, right -- the address. It's the cryptically named Searunner.com

Anyway, back to Drupal hell :-/
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Maren

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