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Old 19-01-2013, 07:17   #1636
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Excellent couple of posts there Roy, the voice of experience...

ON BOAT PROJECTS IN GENERAL:
Localized rot is indeed quite repairable in plywood boats, as is a huge hole, from a hard WHACK! Some boats, however, just need a Viking funeral. Plywood boats don't take to decades of neglect very well. That dificult judgement call is up to the individual, and is "personal". The owners plans, boatbuilding skill, age, spare time for the project, spouses opinion, and money, come into play.

Short of the "near dead" boats with overall rot issues, I have found from my experience that the worst possible problem, in hours to make it right, is poor adhesion between the plywood and glass sheathing, OR between the paint system and the glass. Why?

It is very difficult to "totally strip" the failed paint (IF necessary), without drastically damaging the ultra thin glass job, and it is even harder to remove the failed glass (If necessary), from the plywood... without nearly destroying it. Then there are years of fairing and repairs, followed by re-glassing.

This is an awesome task to undertake! Searunners were never designed to be glassed after building. They were designed to be built of pre-glassed components. (In the case of WEST system boats, pre-glassed AND pre-coated inside). What was not pre-glassed, like hulls, were glassed upside down or on their sides. To prep and WEST epoxy inside of hulls "after the fact", is also a difficultly factor of 10. It can all be done after the fact, but involves a logistical nightmare consuming tens of thousands of hours.

Like I said, the things we get into is all such a "personal" question, and a difficult judgement call for those new to boatbuilding. It is good to have ones eyes open, and only then, IF it's right for them, go for it!

M.
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Old 19-01-2013, 09:10   #1637
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by clemon View Post
Hello All,
In the continuing saga of "Why West System boats like Searunner 34's should not have deck penetrations", I'm removing a set of large deck mounted quick release lever arms and cheek plates that are used to tension the running back stays. These also cause the deck to flex, which eventually causes the fiberglass to crack nearby, which in New Zealand, leads to the dreaded wood rot. Has anyone come up with a simple quick release mechanism? I've read that a 4:1 block system will work fine, set up sort of like a vang tension system, on each backstay to chainplate system. This looks fine, but cheaper or other clever ideas are worth looking at.

On the continued dread issue of wood rot, I'm starting to get paranoid about the head stay attachment, as I'm suspicious that water may be getting into the bow area. I can't tell if water seeping into this area can drain out, or whether it will pool and rot out the headstay mounting plate. I really wish the searunner had an external chain plate for the headstay. Has anyone come up with a clever way of inspecting this area, aside from cutting in through the deck top?
Cheers, Chris


Clemon, you brought up several issues. I'll try to help.

PREVENTING GLASS PUNCTURES:
This gets back a bit to my post about bolt tensioning... For small items, like pad eyes, just proper bolt tensioning should work, because the pad is "almost" perfectly flat, and quite small. For large hardware's base plates, like stantion or bow/stern rail welded bases, they are less in total conformity to the deck, (wavy), and have much larger bases. (Perhaps your lever's base flange was too)?

In these cases I always make a base plate of something hard, and glue these down to the deck, between the soft ply and hardware's SS base. I used a heavily glassed fairing block on the stantions' bases, and disks of 1/4" Micarta = "Phenolic" sheet, (1/2" larger than their bases), on irregular bottomed, larger things, like bow & stern railing's welded bases. (1/4" thick discs of solid glass work just as well for this).

These disks (or squares) are glued on before drilling and prepping the bolt holes, for the hardware that's to be caulked down later.

They allow the hardware's base to be really tightened down, (contrary to my previous post about other "smaller" hardware), and if you have serious backing inside, with extra plywood and with metal backing plates, or at least extra ply and thick fender washers, (you can stack them), then you will NOT damage the glass job at the base of any of these highly loaded fittings. Otherwise, due to "hard spots" in the rail's non conforming custom made base, you will crush the deck in spots, to get others to merely touch. This is future rot, just waiting to happen!

All openings through the hull or deck, (for bolts, chainplates, etc), need at least 5 coats of epoxy on day 1, then sand to a better smoother shape, and to pop air bubble pores on day 2, followed by coating 5 more coats of epoxy. Right before installation, on day 3, a light sand will make room for the bolt or fitting. Then caulk it up profusely! CUTTING CORNERS HERE IS A HUGE MISTAKE!

Yours is a WEST boat, right? If your forestay chainplate's slits through the deck got this treatment originally, (100% perfectly as I suggest), then even if the chainplate leaks through, rot is not the issue... CREVICE CORROSION IS! Here, it would be better if they were of 316 grade SS, or better yet, TITANIUM!

I have 1/4" wide moats of this 1/4" thick Micarta sheet around each chainplate, and fill the void with a generous fillet of 3-M 4000 UV. (replaced every 3 years) I dig down in the slot about 3/8 to 1/2" with a razor knife, way past the broken down & un-adhered surface (1/8" layer of caulk). That exposes where crevice corrosion would be, if it hasn't leaked past, and if so, you would see evidence.
I never have needed to, but you could then dig deeper. If it looks bad, replace the whole cp.

Ideally these chainplates would be made with 2X4" or so welded on base plates, just above the slots, and the deck would have glassed on base plate "thick spots" of Micarta or sheet glass. This minimizes leak possibilities, and is done on high end production boats.

The above is harder for us to accomplish accurately, making homemade hardware, and since welds across a chainplate weaken it, a thicker (= heavier) plate would be called for. Normally these are 1/4" thick chainplates, doubled up at the top to 1/2", for better bearing surface area at the clevis pin hole.

Probably, the best compromise would be to use the current concept, but with proper sealing of the wood at the slot, and use full 3/8" thick Titanium chainplats. (This avoids sealing around that SS doubler notch at the top, and avoids welds too). Being so light a material, the result would be no heavier, easier to keep sealed, (with the described moats), and totally immune to crevice corrosion.

NEXT best option... Do the same with 316 SS, but DO weld the notch to step down CP thickness on there, but way BELOW deck level. With maintenance, it will last too. Mine are just 304 SS, and I inspect them as well as service them on a schedule. The're still perfect!

DECK MOUNTED LEVERS, PADS, ETC:
ANY flexing from an upward pull on the deck, must be reduced to "0". The attached photo shows how I backed a heavily loaded pad eye, (for my preventer), with another one, but upside down under the deck. Using with a pre-loaded turnbuckle, I spread the load down to a strong part of the ama.

REMOVABLE RUNNERS & STAYSAIL STAY:
For one thing, 4 to 1 tackles are better than nothing, but not really up to pounding to windward in giant waves, under staysail, in a gale. If you can't put > 800 #s of pretension on them, the mast will still pump dangerously. Also, tackles as strong in WL as the wire (or synthetic, like my runners), cost a small fortune.

Hyfield levers, especially for runners, are huge, heavy, and complicated. They don't allow adjustments under load. I don't like them.

I have a nice (but pricey) Wichard snapshackle/quick adjust turnbuckle on the forestay. (by hand only, no tools) I can have all three supports rigged up, but just snug, then tension them in < 1 minute, (for ALL 3), just before raising the staysail. Photo attached... You see how I put it away when stored, for protected sailing. At sea, it is always made up for use, just looser.

The runners are similar, but cheaper "Johnson" brand turnbuckles. I have these ready for use, but loose until needed, just like the staysail stay. When storing them, I unshackle the shroud, bunji the turnbuckle as shown to a stantion, and attach the shroud's synthetic line to small bunji storage blocks, further forward. With wire runners, bunji will not work for this, as wire weighs more and will flop around too much with bunji.

With a genoa in use, the runners are better stored at the cabin's sides, to prevent conflicts, and I will eventually move my storage position there.

This making up or storing of BOTH runners, takes from 45 seconds to 1 minute. It was the simplest, least expensive, and quickest deployed (but strong) solution I could come up with.

Of coarse, as we all know from looking around, there are about a dozen other ways as well.

Again... for long time readers, I apologize for repeating myself here.

M.
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Old 19-01-2013, 17:36   #1638
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Hello all, This is my first post in general forums, probably 2nd overall. Mark, that's some nice work in those photos! Very clean chain-plate installation. Searunner 31, I tend to do most of my work alone, so as long as the water where your boat is berthed is fairly calm, I wouldn't consider it a big problem to do your repair dockside. Here's a rough outline of how I would proceed. I'm sure plenty of hands on this board will be able to simplify or modify this scheme. Start by removing the crosspiece that connects the main hull to the outrigger. Replace it with a similar piece, but have a section of 2 x 8 glued and lag bolted to it standing on edge. If you still have concerns about the connection hanging together, you can take the main halyard to the outboard top edge of it, and take a second line wrapped around, lead it under the main hull, to a block on the other outrigger and lead it to a winch. Pad the line with carpet where it runs under the hull. Lightly tension both lines. Once the new connection seems solid you should be able to unbolt the A-frame and get to work on the rot. Delineate the edges of your rot problem, and add a few inches to the size. Try to work in rectangles or triangles, it's easier. Follow some of the good advice in previous posts. Don't be afraid to dig in, concentrate on getting things structural and watertight. As for looks, anything you do has to be more attractive that rotted plywood with a hole in it.

Pat
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Old 19-01-2013, 17:48   #1639
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

As a former A-frame 31 owner, I'll say all you have to do is unbolt the A-frame to get it out of the way. No need to remove the ama or add support as long as the other A-frame is in place and the 2 2x6's are in place. Keep it simple, cut out the bad wood to the nearest frame and back to where the A-frame attaches. Leave a couple of inches at the inner ama. Then follow what others have prescribed for pieceing in replacement ply and reglass. Use a 12"square of at least 1/2" ply as a doubler under all the stanchions.
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Old 21-01-2013, 00:17   #1640
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Thanks for evenings help.

My worker was telling me there was no way that anyone could get in there. It's because he didn't want to get down in there.

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Now i have,a picture down inside and I can see how easy it will be to fix. When I undo the aframe from the ama do you think I can fix it without undoing the aframe from the main hull? Also on the adjustable stay what size backing plate would you recommend. I might as well shore t that up to.
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Old 21-01-2013, 08:21   #1641
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I went inside mine to cut limber holes and also to setup panels to create collision bulkheads, essentially 3 waterproof chambers during long passages. I was 5'9" and 165. If the running back stay release lever is near the stanchion why not enlarge the doubler to include that as well? The downside is a little increased weight, the upside is a stiffer deck.
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Old 21-01-2013, 09:27   #1642
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

There's a good reason this thread has over 1600 replies. We seem to keep the trolls at bay, ourselves, and actually share detailed information for the benefit of those participating. This is so cool, and a measure of the Searunner community. Thank you all! And it just keeps getting more interesting as more folks with Searunners come in from the cold.
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Old 21-01-2013, 13:53   #1643
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yea Roy
Us Searunner owners are like a family within our own families.
We get to far away places and venture into amazing area's.
We like to tinker on our boats cause they are the perfect boat for that.
We have interesting friends with interesting boats.
We live in the sterncastle and enjoy our sunsets or moon rises.
We enjoy our food whilst looking out with joy.
We like to talk about Searunners and how to make em better.

The Searunner family is surely a one of a kind. Swimming between the hulls an't bad either.......
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Old 21-01-2013, 19:38   #1644
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

a trick I like to use for backing plates & washers that seems to eliminate cupping or digging into the surface they're supposed to be protecting is to do a layup of glass on a cookie sheet, or a surface covered with wax paper. Make it large, make it thick (3/8?, more). I use a hole saw in the necessary sizes for washers, dimension backing plates on a table saw. They don't rot and don't bend.

Pat
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Old 22-01-2013, 00:47   #1645
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by searunner31 View Post
Thanks for evenings help.

My worker was telling me there was no way that anyone could get in there. It's because he didn't want to get down in there.

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Now i have,a picture down inside and I can see how easy it will be to fix. When I undo the aframe from the ama do you think I can fix it without undoing the aframe from the main hull? Also on the adjustable stay what size backing plate would you recommend. I might as well shore t that up to.
My knees hurt just looking at the picture. I really like the process of trying to wiggle backwards out of the hulls, once you've climbed way in. Very claustrophobic.
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Old 22-01-2013, 09:20   #1646
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

It looks like someone repaired a stringer (down near the chine) by "sistering" it in the past. So someone was able to get in there. I see no problem, whatsoever, in placing a Beckson inspection plate on the inboard side of the stantion, next to the frame and between the sheer stringer and the next one down.
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Old 22-01-2013, 21:22   #1647
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I agree that would be ideal. I cut a hole big enough to get the stanchion out and think I'm going to shore up that adjustable stay and tie it in more.

I think my problem is my helper. Plus since I have to take the aframe off I might as well redue the backing plates in the main hull as some one backed it with plexiglass. I went taping around really good and found very little rot. I'm happy about that.

Plus at some point will build a table and settee in the aft cabin.

I prefer a tiller but she has a wheel but takes up so much room so may change that in the future.

I also wonder with all the mahogany and teak down below how much over weight she is.
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Old 23-01-2013, 02:43   #1648
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Searunner 31 San Diego

Anyone looking for a project?

Trimaran, 31 ft Searunner - $1400 (Dulzura)

Not personally connected with this - I'm other side of pond.

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Old 23-01-2013, 16:10   #1649
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Wow what a deal Steve
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Old 23-01-2013, 18:07   #1650
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yes, hope it's worth saving. The side of the hull in one of the pics looks odd though, can't figure out the strange patterns - are they reflections or bad surface ?
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