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Old 22-11-2012, 09:06   #1501
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark, if I sounded like I was chewing your As* at all I apologize. This is a great forum for hashing out real world problems. Maybe the fact your craftsmanship is so good, and your attention to detail so amazing, it is that I identified the methods with the master. By attempting to voice my ideas on another method (that you already put forth) I was labeling the "Mark Method" as too much for me..... Our boats are reflections of all of us one degree or another.
Thanks so much for the help and insight. Corazon is not going anywhere fast, so I have the luxury of a good climate and time to bang this stuff around. Funny how our age and time in life can make a difference.

Jack
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Old 22-11-2012, 13:21   #1502
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The higher the bar the easier to dance the LImbo? The time it takes to do things anyway often evens out. For many people it is easier to find the few hours to repair the problems here and there as they appear while sailing than to invest the large amounts of time in the big redos- which usually take you off the water. Doing your maintenance all at once, ten years of work into one. The catch with that method is there are still the things that need to be done on a routine basis so often the time put into "savings" isn't realized. It is just as easy to include a epoxy/glass touch up in localized areas without adding much time to the winch greasing, bottom scrubbing chores you'll be doing anyway. Don't get me wrong, I've done things both ways depending on the job. For our interior layout redo it made sense to take the boat offline for a year to get the majority of the work done in one go. Now that we can finish up while still sailing its back to the dancing, on waves that is.....
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Old 23-11-2012, 01:08   #1503
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There really is only one way to do anything in life and that is do it well and the best of your capability. Anything less and your never content. Its all about strength. Courage. Honesty. If you cannot do what you want to do let somebody else do it. if you change your mind ... Great and learn from it.
If you own a sea runner your a lucky one. Use it as much as you can.
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Old 23-11-2012, 09:24   #1504
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I just received an interesting little thing from the folks at SUGRU, a product that I have begun to use for all sorts of things. The interesting little thing is a manifesto for the joys of fixing stuff. I think it applies perfectly with this conversation: http://i1.cmail1.com/ei/y/09/144/1D6...rey.222625.gif
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Old 23-11-2012, 12:21   #1505
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Jobs should always be done well but there is always more than one way of skinning the cat or tri. ...That is a good mantra Roy.....
The Searunners are great boats and in no way inferior to Marples CC boats. They are designed to be easily built and used by the homebuilder, anything removing from the concept is getting away from the mission statement. I have seen more failed CC builds because of the extra work involved in making your own ply as well as the eyeball cut and fit needed to finish a semi tortured ply shape. Most people know where they stand cutting to a line and following the directions. Jim Brown covers these points well, for the serious cruiser a faster build with a less glossy sand and fair over the tape joints will work as well and save hundreds of hours of back breaking work. The comprimise on "value" should really be looked at. The true value in these boats is in what they can do for the people who recognize their qualities. There is not a huge market for them as more people are interested in cats so a highly finished boat may take twice the time but is very unlikely to bring back twice the return, assuming equipment, materials and quality wormanship are in both craft. And the basic quality is easy to achieve with basic, easily mastered techniques. Like the Idiot Book for Volkswagens, they were designed to be successfully built by anyone. Reading this forum on occasion I do have concerns that prospective owners or builders have been discouraged or scared away from starting one of the best sailing journeys there is. These craft aren't relics of the past they are viable conveyances of the present and future and there are people who will continue to use them, if encouraged. A plymaran can be hard work but it can also be rewarding and fun depending on your head space. There will always be people who look at mainstream life and choose a different path to achieving their goals, the Searunner concept is still as valid today as it was way back when. So instead of bemoaning the days that are done the veterans should remember to encourage the sailors who have just begun. Bars are limits and owners shouldn't be concerned with them. Seaworthyness and safety come first. after that some may choose a highly refined finish as their way of enjoying boating while others may use a rougher look and be exploring sooner while sweating less over the polish. A homebuild can cover both bases and the area in the middle, what works best for each individual and their situation is what these craft are about, the Searunner can still deliver the world to all of them.
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Old 23-11-2012, 12:21   #1506
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Excellent Roy M.
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Old 23-11-2012, 16:33   #1507
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Again, price is the issue here. The last 2 Searunner 34s that I know of have sold for around 8K and 16K USD. The 8K boat was in New Zealand and was a VERY well built set of hulls with a marginal deck and needed a new trunk and cockpit.

The 18K boat was in the US with diesel engine, radar, fridge, watermaker, spinnaker, sea anchor, full offshore kit, beautiful but heavy teak wood work. Needed a new trunk and some underwing and deck repair. I have yet to see a Searunner for sale with a sound trunk. I'm supposed to survey an older 37 in the near future. Will be interesting to see what I find.

Anyhow, the former SR 34 was owned by me and bought in a state of repair. Long story short, to consider these boats a quick to build in the backyard deal is hard to fathom. But there are also very few today that are worth more used than the sum of the winches, engine and rig.

Nothing wrong with the overall concept of course, just maybe better ways to execute the concept with more modern designs?
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Old 23-11-2012, 17:24   #1508
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

For the plan money people get patterns for everything, a building manual, notes about updated techniues, a easy building method- taped chines and sandwich main strength bulkheads allow less than perfect fits for the novice builder. The building sequence is well laid out and all the designs Ocean tested to the nth degree. I'd be baffled if the average builder couldn't put one together. Those aquireing a skill set might take longer but for most it is very basic- hence their success. A repair can often be more complicated than a build for many as the approach needs to be worked out on a case by case basis. A Marples Seaclipper is a more basic newer design but not really more modern in hull shape. For a cruising tri wing decks have a lot to offer from ease of deck work to survival flotation. A cat might be better way for some to use the materials but tris have their plce for sure. Competing considerations should include ply hulls for comparison. Once you go cold molded or foam glass I think a smoother finish should be considered. Most of the trunk problems come down to lack of ventilation in the reinforcing areas and can be solved with good air flow. For those interested in speeding the fiit out there are many ways to save time, no fold out bins, drawers or cupboard doors for example use epoxy fillets where practical. Now compare what you are getting for the price in plans-many considerations are going to cost 3 times as much and not result in a better boat.
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Old 24-11-2012, 13:34   #1509
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Its been a long time over 1/4 of a century running kayaking trips around the NW corner of this beautiful island. I have been around this coast more than anyone of all history of mankind. Out in the bay sits my Searunner waiting to go on a trip but mostly i am just too busy running this business. But finally if all goes to plan i shall fly the Searunner to the tropics with some surfboards and sailing dori. I cant wait like kid with waiting for christmas
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Old 25-11-2012, 11:28   #1510
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Wow, you guys are incredible! Your knowledge and time expenditures on these boats can only be enviable! Very nice Searunners! Amazing to me that a couple of minor peeling bits on Corazon has generated such discussions.

My SR31 A-Frame built in 1994 and sailed at least once across the pond from France is a fine example of a home built SR but has never been real pretty as far as I can tell. She was in need of a paint job when I got her in Toronto almost 9 years ago. I brought her down to Nantucket via Erie Canal and stayed on her most of the next year (winter, too).

The freeboards had a bunch of peeling right down to the glass (see pic). I took her out that next winter and used Toplac on her after applying epoxy and filler as needed. Topside, too. Except for a few minor spots the hulls haven’t failed yet. Since then I have slapped a coat of house paint on once or twice – that’s it – 7years of service and hulls show no sign of failing.

The topside is a little different story since that’s where UV tends to create the most havoc. It tended to show peeling here and there pretty much on an ongoing basis. Not wanting to spend a lot of time or money I simply scrape the loose paint sections to exposed glass, apply a light coat of non-blush epoxy (Marine epoxy industrial floor epoxy, boat repair, bar top, underwater epoxies CATALOG) and some paint and moved on. A few afternoons of work over a few years was not too time consuming.

She has only been out of the water for the winter season 4 times in 9 years. I figure she floats, right? Cleaned her bottom in the water once – that was a pain! Next time I beached her to check and clean the bottom (see pic). Nice to have reading material and munchies waiting for the tide!

Two years ago I decided to use BM Floor & Patio Epoxy Modified Latex Enamel on the topsides. I cleaned up the peeling in spots as needed and prepped in the normal way with epoxy then applied the BM paint. I am familiar with the product and know it tends to wear off without creating thick pock marks like Toplac. Plus it is easy and cheap enough. Problem is that it doesn’t clean well and holds the dirt and I don’t like that. So . . .

Last year I had to be away in the summer a lot so I kept the boat out of the water. Chance to put some decent time in! I probably spent about 100 hours looking over every inch of the boat scraping every bit of peel or crack paint that would come off. Lightly sanded same as well! I got quite a bit of paint off, too! See pics. I finished it off with Interlux Brightside and non-skid Interdeck this time. Yep, I broke down and bought expensive paint! I expect it will hold up just fine for the most part and need some spot touch up as usual now and again. For this I keep the needed material aboard.

There was mention of trunk and centerboard rot problems on these boats. Maybe because my SR31 is newer but I don’t have any rot problems. I coat the trunk with epoxy as a matter of course and the centerboard is treated the same as the bottom. The construction material is Okoume multiply plywood on red pine stringers with GRP sheathed hulls. I have found some rot though in the forward anchor locker and the stern under the stern pulpit which I had to take off to repair. Also a bit of rot in the ama hatches. All in all not awfully difficult or time consuming to repair.

In summary I guess this is a long round about way of stating that doing it “my” way doesn’t cost nearly the same in time or dollars as doing it “right” over the long haul. Pretty? Two women came down from Maine last year with the idea of buying her and one said, “She isn’t very pretty!” Well, that kind of hurt my feelings ;-) But I guess she is right!

Still, she is a well built, safe and wonderful sailor! If I sell her I won’t get 30k for her but . . . she hasn’t cost me a bundle, either.
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Old 25-11-2012, 15:08   #1511
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My belief is that the only small amount of power that we have in making the world a better place, is to: "BE the change that we wish to see in the world". I have done this since I left home @ 15 years old.. I have aspired to growth and excellence in all aspects of my life... physically, mentally, and in all areas of knowledge and skill as well. I do "my best" when I build boats, houses, furniture, arts & crafts, or whatever...

It isn't yet known how long a "good" wood/epoxy boat lasts. Our WEST / LP boat is of 33 year old materials now, and still perfect. I suspect she is good for at least 100 more, WITH maintenance. (Time will tell). My houses and furniture... good for perhaps 200 years or so!

This is not uncommon, just not valued any more. I have friends who equipped their shops with perfectly functional 80 year old tools. They get repaired, rather than fill up the landfills. In Europe, 200 years old is quite common for houses and furniture, and over 100 years is occasionally seen in boats. (And THAT was before WEST & LP paint technology)!

I hate vinyl covered particle board faux furniture crap, that sells so cheaply these days. I also hate the ultra low standard in quality and lifespan, that so many folks under 50 come to believe is "normal". Being highly educated, (although I was continuously "self taught" through life), is deemed "elitist", and aspiring to nothing more than mediocrity, out of impatience and laziness, is admired.

Regarding some things in our lives, many people these days seem to be OK with a 5 or 10 year lifespan, (if not HALF that), then whatever it is is shot, it becomes fodder for the landfill... Or just sits out and rots... another blight on the landscape.

The instant gratification, low investment, low expectation, low result, modern world that we live in, is polluting our vastly overcrowded world. It is shameful in my view. It is nothing to be proud of for sure. Sure, they'll get slaps on the back. "AttaBoy"... But this comes from others with those same low standard values.

IF someone has done their very best, be it the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker, then they have in fact achieved excellence! It is not about money or skill, its about patience and a deep down "caring" about everything that one does, from their craftsmanship, to their carbon footprint, to their interpersonal relationships. Always, DOING ONE'S BEST!

As it applies to boats... Going out long distance cruising in unsafe, poorly built and poorly maintained vessels of any kind, is stupid. I personally know of countless multihulls that looked OK at a distance, until they more or less fell apart, almost killing their neglectful owners. If it is in the tropics, and they are lucky, trimarans are more forgiving of this. Even when boats that I know of had an ama break completely off, (one... a SR 31), they sailed back to the dock. Some call that a great adventure, but I call it just stupid.

I wish we lived in a world where "everyone" cared, applied common sense, and did the best that they could. I have seen hundreds of derelict multihulls on the beach, that were there because the boat's owners did otherwise. Their anchoring was as sloppy as their maintenance, and I often had to put MY anchors on the ones upwind of me, in a gale!

DON'T GET ME WRONG... There are many perfectly sound, expertly maintained trimarans out there, that are pre WEST system, pre LP paint versions, and they're still perfectly safe boats. They do, however, require many times the maintenance, and will have a fraction of the overall lifespan, but still... 50 years of service could be attained, SAFELY. (With constant maintenance)

Taken to the neglectful extremes, however...
If these boats also get sloppy workmanship, rationalized neglect, and ridiculously stupid materials, (like latex house paint), then they may be doing just fine for a few years, until they're not. This is when they require rescue, or end up on the beach, or the boats die, rotting away in some yard. The owner, if they survive, often rationalizes that they were not irresponsible, and have not lived their life at others expense.

No matter what technology or materials is used, or the number of hulls, I suggest that those with a low attention span, looking for instant gratification, NOT get into cruising. They're not suited to it.

I also suggest that if they are committed to it, THIS IS A LONG TERM FORMATIVE PURSUIT! Their journey should include years of study, gaining knowledge and skill, and they should work on every aspect of cruising and seamanship, NOT just focused on the boat. In other words: Go slow, learn, DO YOUR BEST, and become excellent! Then, if **** happens anyway, and you loose your boat, your conscience is clear.


EXCELLENCE CAN BE OBTAINED IF YOU:

CARE MORE THAN OTHERS THINK IS WISE;
RISK MORE THAN OTHERS THINK IS SAFE;
DREAM MORE THAN OTHERS THINK IS PRACTICAL;
EXPECT MORE THAN OTHERS THINK IS POSSIBLE.

M.
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Old 25-11-2012, 15:27   #1512
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Boats maintained as described have as long a lifespan as other efforts. It is sad to see some posters attempt to tar valid approaches as sloppy wasteful or uncaring etc....Latex is a great painting approach that some deride who have never tried. Nobody is advocating haf arsed workmanship Indeed the owner who maintains as they go often keeps a better craft as the aren't suffering from the "I did it this way and don't have to worry" delusional approach that Mark some of the more manic efforts. Nice looking boat Jimske, you won't have to stand on your head to keep it sailing.
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Old 25-11-2012, 15:33   #1513
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
I just received an interesting little thing from the folks at SUGRU, a product that I have begun to use for all sorts of things. The interesting little thing is a manifesto for the joys of fixing stuff. I think it applies perfectly with this conversation: http://i1.cmail1.com/ei/y/09/144/1D6...rey.222625.gif
Point well taken, Roy.
I like that.

You know, latest research is... That it always was a myth that we only use a small portion of our brain. In fact, we use 100%, but our IQ varies a LOT, all of our life.

If left alone and not really "stretched" for years, our brains atrophy rather quickly. By constantly doing that which is difficult, or new and unfamiliar to us, and by constantly learning "new" things, we become smarter as we age...

Its our choice!
M.
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Old 25-11-2012, 16:08   #1514
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

A boat in a northern climate, lightly used, will need much less preventative work than one cruised in the tropics. Jim Browns glass schedule is OK for those boats, but what Mark recommends is needed for serious cruising. I depart a bit as I fell nothing needs more than 3-4 coats of epoxy plus an appropriate primer. And the amount of sanding is not that great when using no blush epoxies and making sure you get a good mechanical bond with 40'grit orbital marks.

It's a total waste of time to use latex paint as currently available in the tropics. Some of the water based bottom paints seem pretty good, so perhaps the technology is possible to get a more LP like paint that is water based. I believe they are using some water based car paints in California and Australia.

Jeff
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Old 25-11-2012, 16:40   #1515
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The latex that works on houses in the tropics works on boats in the tropics. A water based LP style paint sounds worthy of development as well. Perhaps those who advise without trying should start with their dink to test things out...
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