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Old 18-03-2009, 18:26   #31
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I dont think any of them are going to break apart- the worst that I see happening is a pitch pole and thats not going to be fun- I think it depends on who's sailing the boat and how strong the storm is-if a pitch pole would happen
Ram, I was concerned that my solid foredeck might be more prone to pitchpoling, but after that one experience I'm not so sure. The bows went down until the underside of the foredeck started to contact the water. The underside of my foredeck has a large flat surface which seemed to lift the bows as the wave started to push me from behind. The bows never actually went under but stopped about a foot short of that, which is about the bottom of the foredeck. Though the wave continued to lift the stern the bows just seemed to scoot along at that level and then began to rise. Not all solid deck cats have this kind of flat surface on the underside so this may only apply to the Endeavourcat 44.
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Old 18-03-2009, 20:07   #32
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tramp or solid

We have a 47 foot cat and on our 1st trip from Florida to Ecuador had 15 to 20 seas for 3 days north of Cuba. The seas were from every direction and was just a total washing machine. The seas built up between the hulls and and were not only slamming the bridgedeck, but also pushing back forward through the tramps and tore them both almost completely out, and also broke the aluminum catwalk. It litterally ripped the cross beams out of the main structure and bent the rest. I would say that in my case, no way would I replace the tramp with solid!
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Old 19-03-2009, 02:22   #33
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The seas were from every direction and was just a total washing machine. The seas built up between the hulls and and were not only slamming the bridgedeck, but also pushing back forward through the tramps and tore them both almost completely out, and also broke the aluminum catwalk. It litterally ripped the cross beams out of the main structure and bent the rest. I would say that in my case, no way would I replace the tramp with solid!
Did anything else but the 'loose' parts break? I guess not, otherwise you would have mentioned your boat came apart...
This does not confirm a solid foredeck would have been taken out as your tramp, catwalk and even cross beams have...
A boat with a solid foredeck for sure would have slammed a lot more !

But I understand the concerns ! Instead of totally breaking up a boat with solid foredeck (instance which luckily is unknown as of yet) , only the tramp and ancillaries have been taken out... This still keeps you afloat and safe !
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Old 19-03-2009, 04:46   #34
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Ram, I was concerned that my solid foredeck might be more prone to pitchpoling, but after that one experience I'm not so sure. The bows went down until the underside of the foredeck started to contact the water. The underside of my foredeck has a large flat surface which seemed to lift the bows as the wave started to push me from behind. The bows never actually went under but stopped about a foot short of that, which is about the bottom of the foredeck. Though the wave continued to lift the stern the bows just seemed to scoot along at that level and then began to rise. Not all solid deck cats have this kind of flat surface on the underside so this may only apply to the Endeavourcat 44.
Pitchpoling would only be a threat when the wave high was high/steep enough to allow your boat to surf at a high speed fast enough to bury the bow- if you could slow the boat down that would reduce this chance of this happening- when things get that bad Im not sailing anymore im breaking out a chute or pulling a drouge under a hankerchif
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Old 19-03-2009, 07:25   #35
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Ram, I don't actually think I was in any danger of pitchpoling that day, the waves were steep because I was crossing some relatively shallow water approaching an inlet. If things were that bad I certainly would not have had the sails up. As it was I had 2 reefs in. I was only commenting because when I bought the boat I was a bit concerned that the weight forward would make her more prone to pitchpoling. Having been on other cats with tramps where the bows did go under in a steep sea, though we were not going fast enough or burying them deep enough to pitchpole, I was struck by the difference in the way the boat reacted compared to them when put into such a position. The bow definitely stopped going down when the bridgedeck hit the water and the speed was translated into lifting the bow as it planed on the underside of the foredeck. The boat also slowed substantially as all this was taking place. I'm not saying this boat won't pitchpole under any circumstances, I'm just no longer concerned that the boat is any more prone to it than any other design. In fact it might be slightly less prone to it, but I'm not going to push it to find out.

I do have to admit I have never had my boat out in conditions that Quartersplash has described, but a Voyage 47 is a very wide boat. Since it spans a larger area a much larger wave can get underneath it and come up through the tramp. Being a narrow cat I've found that once the seas get above 3 feet the whole boat tends to ride on the same wave. I really don't get a situation where I have the hulls in a trough and a crest in between. I also don't think that my foredeck is any less capable from a stress standpoint than any other part of my bridgedeck. If conditions are going to break my foredeck they'll probably break the rest of the boat as well. If things get really bad I would be worried about several other issues before I worried about the structural integrity of the foredeck.
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Old 19-03-2009, 11:25   #36
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Several other minor differences...

having sailed on both types.
  • Not only can you lounge on the tramp, the wind comes from underneith. Very cool.
  • My PDQ has built-in chairs at the aft edge of the tramp, so that difference is mute.
  • Tramps can be a little more wet.
  • Tramps are not slipery when wet, compared to FRP
  • Tramps do not hurt if you need to kneel to work in rough weather... or nice weather.
  • If you fall on a tramp, you tend to fall to the middle: if you fall on a hard deck you tend to fall out, since the deck is crowned.
  • It is generally easier to lash things to a tramp... though for 15 years I have allways just thrown the boat hook on the tramp and have never lost one. It just stays in the center.
  • Where one would stand on a solid deck in rough weather, you will often wish to kneel in rough weather on a tramp, which is very secure compared to a hard deck.
  • Tramps do not last forever - 5-8 years.
  • Tramps can be destroyed by green water... but that might not be worse than the alternative.
  • Tramps can be cut by a carlessly placed anchor etc.... but FRP can be scratched and the anchor may slide away.
  • It's easy to wash of line and chain on a tramp.
Some people find a tramp unsettling to walk on because of the slightly poorer footing, particularly when it is rough, but I gather I have dome it so long I preffer the slight shock absorption of a tramp and accept the slight loose in stability as a fair trade. Taste, I suppose.
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Old 20-03-2009, 09:44   #37
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There are a higher incidence of pitch-poles among solid fordeck cats. This is from accident data. That does not make pitchpoles mandatory.

Beach-cat owners know that you can submerge a bow to a limited extent and the boat will not pitch, but it will slow down. The weight of water is unloaded thru the tramps.

Does a solid foredeck give you more room inside? No. The Designer gave you more room inside because he was designing a roomier cat.

The reason there are more solid foredeck cats in your price range is that they are less desirable in today's market, hence have a lower price.

There is always a lot of room left for quibling over minutiae, and there will always be apocryphal personal experiences, but the market speaks loudest.

For a cruiser of moderate means, the best wisdom is still "go smaller, go sooner!"
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Old 20-03-2009, 10:02   #38
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I had a Prendle 18 for years and sailed it in some wicked weather burying the bows many times and I was thrown in the water when the boat stopped on a dime more than once! Fast & Fun!
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Old 20-03-2009, 10:17   #39
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Sandy, I would be interesting in reading that accident data, can you tell me where to find it?
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Old 21-03-2009, 16:51   #40
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Its not published. Part of the data is from Lloyd's and is proprietary, and part from the Coast Guard and NTSB Data. It dates back to the GIGO era of computers [garbage in, garbage out] and used definitions that changed over time. In short, the data was horrible, and there were no narrative reports attached. I tried to relate the different generations and definitions and came to the conclusion that there would be no objective reliable results other than a few generalities, without pouring a lot of money on the problem, and then with little hope of useful information. The sample was to small, the reporting too erratic, and the reporters too unsophisticated. See:

SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Trimaran capsizes off New Zealand! Multi-hull or Mono-hull?
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