Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-04-2015, 03:06   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,099
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailingcouple13 View Post
we can get 55 apparent barely up to 10 knots, but it pinching and slow not efficient. 60 is ideal and we can maintain better shape. Without a long sprit it can be difficult to get proper sheeting angel on a 155 at that tight. Here is a pic of ours at 55

Sent from my SM-G900P using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
L400 is very wide for it's length more than L 440, and especially yours. You have longer bowsprit as well.

So i am guessing will be good above 90 true or 60 app. Below that true angle, jib does same or better.

So that means at 90 true in 10 kn of true wind boat should do 6 knwhich is 1 kn or so better than jib.
At 80 deg boat will do 4 kn in 10 true which is not efficient as jib does better.

and if you can do 55 app, then will go 5 kn in 10 kn wind at 80 true that more or less matches jib.

But will do 7 kn at 90 true in 10 kn wind
__________________

__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2015, 15:40   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: 46' custom cat
Posts: 1,572
Images: 2
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
I am somewhat confused - what do you mean by 'open up the head of the main'?
If you mean opening the leech, it can't be done without freeing the mainsheet. If you free the mainsheet, why do you care about the topping lift? the leech will open anyway.
Can you explain a little more?
In very light air the weight of the boom will tend to pull down on the leech even with the sheets eased. This pulls the leech in at the head just when you want it to 'open up', particularly on a heavily roached main. Tightening up the topping lift lifts the boom and allows the leech at the head to 'open up' and spill the wind. Remember, the OP is talking about sailing in 4 knots of wind, which is pretty heroic. As wind speed increases the pressure of the wind in the sail is enough to keep the boom up and the topping lift becomes unnecessary, as you point out.
__________________

__________________
Mike

www.sailblogs.com/member/rumdoxy

Come to the dark side. We have cookies.
mikereed100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 00:39   #33
Registered User
 
2Wind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikereed100 View Post
I've been using the topping lift to open up the head of the main for a long time, as I did with my mono's, but I have never figured out how to get it to work on both tacks on the cat with it's greater roach without first lowering the main a bit to get the leech past the topping lift.
I might be missing your point but....

Just release the topping lift before the tack.
Have enough slack that after the tack it can come freely around to the windward side of the leech (you might need to assist it by going to the boom end and giving it a good flick).
Position the traveller if not centred during the previous tack.
The sheet should not need adjustment assuming you will aim for the reciporical tack angle.
Then tighten up the topping lift to get the desired shape at the head once again.


In general terms, I've found that the upward movement on the boom that is required is only a matter of 8 - 12 inches max, just enough to effectively "unweight" the leech up high and allow for twist. I also have the traveller much further to windward that i normally would do in stronger winds to ensure that the lower 2/3 of the sail is efficient with the slightly looser main sheet. The balance between the three adjustments (lift, sheet and traveller) is key.
__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
2Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 06:47   #34
pbr
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 186
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

A solid vang will give you the same result with a lot less hassle and infinitely more adjustment when it comes to twist.
__________________
pbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 07:21   #35
Registered User
 
impi's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: From Cape Town now New Caledonia
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 952
Images: 8
Send a message via Skype™ to impi
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
Tight sheet against the topping lift may in fact solve the issue.
However, my main issue in the post was the idea that you may use the mainsail without interfering with the spinnaker and get valuable power from it. Just set it right.
And, one issue more to consider: if you need to take down/roll the spi urgently for any reason, and do not want to start the engine, you will be with the main up at least and not powerless.
We have sailed many miles with the asymmetric and Spinni and found the main usually affects good performance.
Perhaps I am doing something wrong but with nothing but time on my hands and days on end in the oceans - I have yet to find a way to set the main so it does not affect the spinni in dead downwind situations.
Of course with a bit of angle in the right winds, a main can assist the asymmetric, but mostly we feel there is more benefit in sailing these sails without the main.

We crank the topping lift in against the main sheet and then crank in on the mainsheet.
One can 'feel the power' in the boat and we ease off the skirt (tack) when necessary and /or otherwise 'break the tack' using a punch through the T12 fitting. That 'de powers' the entire system immediately.

I have posted these videos before, but for your interest and in case you have not seen them - there is one flying the asymmetric without the main in sting squalls and another on the way to Bora Bora where we punch out the tack with the T12

Touch wood here - we have never felt a threat of the rig being under pressure. In gusting winds we get the sail flying by using the motors to assist in keeping the power off the rig through the sail, and once under way engines come off.



__________________
In our own style and our own time ...
http://cat-impi.blogspot.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIy...Uhlfkd34f8FrEg
impi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 07:59   #36
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

I used to use topping lift in light air to open leech on my old boat. New boat has solid vang which does same thing in raising boom when I release vang tackle. Easier as no snagging leech when we tack.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 08:54   #37
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: 46' custom cat
Posts: 1,572
Images: 2
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
Just release the topping lift before the tack.
Have enough slack that after the tack it can come freely around to the windward side of the leech (you might need to assist it by going to the boom end and giving it a good flick).
Thanks. My main has too much roach at the head for this to work, but I have a new main coming soon that has much less and will give this a try.
__________________
Mike

www.sailblogs.com/member/rumdoxy

Come to the dark side. We have cookies.
mikereed100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 12:28   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Boat in Turkey, Beach cat in Israel
Boat: Lagoon 400 & Nacra 6.0 beach cat
Posts: 627
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

[QUOTE=impi;1803446]We have sailed many miles with the asymmetric and Spinni and found the main usually affects good performance.
Perhaps I am doing something wrong but with nothing but time on my hands and days on end in the oceans - I have yet to find a way to set the main so it does not affect the spinni in dead downwind situations.
Of course with a bit of angle in the right winds, a main can assist the assymetric]

My experience is that usually, when your target is dead down wind it pays to tack downwind and not sail straight downwind.
We have measured our VMG downwind while training for racing and actual regattas on various monohulls (J120, Bavaria Match 35 and racing beach cats like f18). The tacking down wind was always faster than running before.
When wind picked up it paid to get lower but never at 180 deg to the wind. If you have a polar table for your boat you can easily find the best angle for going downwind.
There may be boats that behave differently
However, I would suggest to check your speed towards the target by using the VMG function found on most MFD systems.
__________________
meirriba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 14:52   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
My experience is that usually, when your target is dead down wind it pays to tack downwind and not sail straight downwind.
We have measured our VMG downwind while training for racing and actual regattas on various monohulls (J120, Bavaria Match 35 and racing beach cats like f18). The tacking down wind was always faster than running before.
Yes, for sure on your Nacra, but not on your Lagoon....

There are very few cruising cats that can gybe downwind and make better VMG than dead down wind. There is no shame here - the vast majority of cruising cats are simply too heavy to generate the speed necessary to bring the apparent wind around far enough on the beam to do this.

Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 15:47   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,099
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Yes, for sure on your Nacra, but not on your Lagoon....

There are very few cruising cats that can gybe downwind and make better VMG than dead down wind. There is no shame here - the vast majority of cruising cats are simply too heavy to generate the speed necessary to bring the apparent wind around far enough on the beam to do this.

Dave
this are polars Lagoon 41, simlar to Lagoon 400. Looks like 140 - 150 true is the answer.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	L400.JPG
Views:	97
Size:	190.3 KB
ID:	100636  
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 16:01   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
this are polars Lagoon 41, simlar to Lagoon 400. Looks like 140 - 150 true is the answer.
Answer to what? If you seriously think your Lagoon 400 can make better VMG gybing downwind vs dead downwind, I invite you to find a race with any other 400 and bet a case of rum as the prize. You'll go thirsty....

Have you ever raced your boat in an organized regatta against other cruising cats? I have and can attest that we've observed several who thought gybing downwind was the "answer" and were severely embarrassed - as predicted. But don't take my word for it. Try it yourself.

Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 17:26   #42
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Ill take the rum for the rhumb!
BTW. those Polars are dreaming mate! I dunno why polars just cant get it right. Did someone think theyed sell more boats by inflating the figures?
12K boats speed in 22K wind on a beam reach? I Wish!
Actually those figures might be close if not loaded for crusing, engines removed and furniture stripped !:P
__________________
monte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 17:52   #43
pbr
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 186
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

When sailing downwind, cruising cats are not much different than most mono hulls , they can and do benefit sailing angles downwind with better VMG up to a certain point of wind velocity which is probably true wind somewhere close to 20knots. The reason that it doesn't seem so at times is when they sail higher angles and jibe, they run the risk of missing a wind shift or sailing to the wrong side, just the same as when sailing/tacking upwind. Most cruisers don't know the difference between a persistent or oscillating wind shift and are probably better off sailing the rumbline. However with the helm in the right hands it can be considerably faster to sail angles offwind both for improved vmg and playing windshifts, and I can assure you that few races have been won without employing the technique.
__________________
pbr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 17:52   #44
Registered User
 
impi's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: From Cape Town now New Caledonia
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 952
Images: 8
Send a message via Skype™ to impi
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

[QUOTE=meirriba;1803608]
Quote:
Originally Posted by impi View Post
We have sailed many miles with the asymmetric and Spinni and found the main usually affects good performance.
Perhaps I am doing something wrong but with nothing but time on my hands and days on end in the oceans - I have yet to find a way to set the main so it does not affect the spinni in dead downwind situations.
Of course with a bit of angle in the right winds, a main can assist the assymetric]

My experience is that usually, when your target is dead down wind it pays to tack downwind and not sail straight downwind.
We have measured our VMG downwind while training for racing and actual regattas on various monohulls (J120, Bavaria Match 35 and racing beach cats like f18). The tacking down wind was always faster than running before.
When wind picked up it paid to get lower but never at 180 deg to the wind. If you have a polar table for your boat you can easily find the best angle for going downwind.
There may be boats that behave differently
However, I would suggest to check your speed towards the target by using the VMG function found on most MFD systems.

Yes, with you here ... on long passages and in the currents we prefer to relax and go with the flow ... I used to race Tigers and of course tacking downwind was the way to go ... but for our Lagoon on a cruising venture ... its as close to running the rhum possible for us ... but then again, we do follow the currents. Initially we used to tack downwind but in all honesty there was very little to nothing in it on our heavy cruiser ... unless we were sailing Main sail and Genoa ONLY ...
__________________
In our own style and our own time ...
http://cat-impi.blogspot.com
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIy...Uhlfkd34f8FrEg
impi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2015, 18:16   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: Topping Lift - Mainsail Trim - Light winds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbr View Post
When sailing downwind, cruising cats are not much different than most mono hulls , they can and do benefit sailing angles downwind with better VMG up to a certain point of wind velocity which is probably true wind somewhere close to 20knots.
I think you're wrong here. Only very light weight boats can benefit from angles downwind vs dead down wind. And certainly not cruising boats. It takes a lot of boat speed to turn the wind to gain any advantage. I raced beach cats for several decades and know how to do it. I have not been able to do it on my cruising cat.

Dave
__________________

__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lift, mainsail, sail, wind

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boom Lift and Topping Lift skully Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 1 19-05-2013 21:14
Rigging a Topping Lift off-the-grid Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 17 16-03-2013 23:04
Lines From Leech To Topping Lift Moonchaser2304 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 12 12-04-2009 20:55
how to install new outhaul and topping lift? deano Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 3 24-12-2008 12:58
topping lift, boom vang and reef? scotty Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 20 08-09-2008 22:12



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:33.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.