Tobago 35 or Lagoon 37, which would you choose?

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by Mystic38

both nice boats...

choice of hull coring should not be any type of factor..unless you are planning on sailing in the cooler waters of the chesapeake/NE during apr/may or nov..in which case the Lagoon would help prevent hull condensation.

I agree. There are a lot of balsa cored hulls out there and as long as it was constructed and maintained correctly there are no issues. As far as constructed, the Lagoon 37s were made by TPI and you don't get better in balsa core construction. A good survey will tell you how it was maintained.

Mike, glad to see you came here with some of your questions. Lots of good people here that can offer some good advice.

Good luck on your search.

Fair winds,

Jesse

[Cheechako]

The FP are noted for their issues. The Older Lagoon 37 is a solid boat. (assuming TPI built) My 42 was apparantly not cored below the waterline, but with TPI building it , it wouldnt have mattered to me if it was. Thru hull shaft drive is a big plus also. Great bridgedeck clearance and large radii blending the bridgedeck to the hulls for strength.
It's a long debated subject, But I like the galley down, for one thing it's huge, you also dont have to live with all those dirty dishes, garbage etc in your living room!

[ThisRatSailed]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

Mike, glad to see you came here with some of your questions. Lots of good people here that can offer some good advice.

Hey Jesse,

Had been planning to, just making sure we've really narrowed down our choices and found all the info I could before bugging everyone. I think we're there and thus far the consensus seems that both options are good ones.

-Mike

[Dulcesuenos]

Galley up is great for comfort unless cooking under way. Last cat we owned was galley down wife hated it under way. She is much more happy galley up. Lagoon is probably stronger more comfy. You should see each and compare. I believe the lagoon bunks are bigger also, could be wrong.

[ThisRatSailed]

I'm surprised no one has brought up draft yet. The Lagoon is a little over 4 ft and the Tobago is just over 3 ft. This was one of the bigger pluses to me with the Tobago...but maybe it isn't as big of a deal based on threads like this:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...mas-44523.html

[Cheechako]

Tobago notes from the internet:
"Also we are noting localized compression of the saloon sole and would like to stiffen this area. what is the sole material, is it cored, what is the layup thickness etc and has anyone dealt with this issue?

Check the balsa cored decks for delamination/moisture as I know some FP boats have had issues with this.
Look for cracks:
1.) Aft saloon to deck/side deck area
2.) Bows and down to the underwater areas, where the 2 hull halves are joined. If you find cracks in the bows, then clean off any anti-fouling under the waterline along the joint and get a surveyor to look at it.

Check for leaks and cracks around the chainplates.
Check for leaks around the bolts that hold the aluminium air intake covers to the engine rooms, this is not critical though.

Open up the steering system at the wheel and check out the state of the (push/pull) teeth if it is the original steering. These are not very good quality and wear out fast.

Check out the escape hatches for sealing and corrosion, as well as state of the plastic handles used, if in doubt have them replaced.

Check rudder bearings for wear.

I have seen some FP's with a bit of osmosis along and just above the waterline - nothing serious, but run your fingers along there and feel for small bumps.

Check for cracking where the davits go through the hulls, as well as where they go up against the backrests. This is a very poor design, and I have made reinforcing struts to take most of the load.

Thanks for the response, the sole compression is noticeable when walking barefoot, viewing from stbd hull with eyes at floor level and when spilled water from the sink pools. we live aboard and with daily yoga on the floor this area gets a lot of traffic. can you elaborate on the hydraulic steering conversion, benifits, challenges, cost, difficulty in installation and autopilot choice? did you leave the drag link in place or install two cylinders?Did you outfit your boat with a staysail and sprit? Did you build these and did you replace the crossbeam or add a centerline compression post in the process?"

[ThisRatSailed]

Cheechako & Dulcesuenos: The galley up versus down has been a debate between my wife and I. We both see the pluses and minuses to both designs. I can imagine it leads to one of those "healthy debates" here.

We have looked at examples of both boats (but have not sailed a Tobago). Yes, the bunks are a bit bigger in the Lagoon (true queen size) while the Tobago bunks are tapered so they start out at 5' on one end but are narrower at the other. Might give the "livability" edge to the Lagoon.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Last cat we owned was galley down wife hated it under way. She is much more happy galley up.

Believe me, this is the ONLY criteria that matters in the galley debate. Doesn't matter if you do all the cooking and the wife never sets foot in the galley. Everything other decision and compromise can be made rationally, but not this one - it is solely her call.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ThisRatSailed

I'm surprised no one has brought up draft yet. The Lagoon is a little over 4 ft and the Tobago is just over 3 ft. This was one of the bigger pluses to me with the Tobago...but maybe it isn't as big of a deal based on threads like this:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...mas-44523.html

In practice, I don't see any difference between 3' and 4' unless you had very specific cruising grounds in mind where that made all the difference.

And then I would be white-knuckled and not very happy cruising there.

Mark

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

I agree. There are a lot of balsa cored hulls out there and as long as it was constructed and maintained correctly there are no issues. As far as constructed, the Lagoon 37s were made by TPI and you don't get better in balsa core construction. A good survey will tell you how it was maintained.

Mike, glad to see you came here with some of your questions. Lots of good people here that can offer some good advice.

Good luck on your search.

Fair winds,

Jesse

Yes, thousands of J boats with water logged balsa is surely a claim to fame for TPI!

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Yes, thousands of J boats with water logged balsa is surely a claim to fame for TPI!

Yeah, because in my experience racers are great at maintenance.

They're also really good at showing courtesy to others on the water too.

[ThisRatSailed]

Thanks everyone that contributed. I think this has told me that we did research this fairly well and that either option would work for us. Now to find the right one.

[kiltym]

Sorry I am a bit late to this, but figured I would add some more to the thread, for future readers if nothing else.

I have owned and lived full time on our Tobago for 6 years. Purchased on east coast of US, spent 4.5 years in Caribbean, and arrived in French Polynesia about 4 weeks ago. We have hull #93 (of 95 built). It's a 1998.

Have no interest in which boat you purchase, just wanted to add some comments to these quotes below which might be helpful. If I don't comment, it is not something I am familiar with on our boat.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Tobago notes from the internet:
"Also we are noting localized compression of the saloon sole and would like to stiffen this area. what is the sole material, is it cored, what is the layup thickness etc and has anyone dealt with this issue?

There is some flex in the sole when the bridgedeck is hit by waves (making the table basically unusable while underway in any type of sea. I have heard the same complaint from owners of bigger FPs as well). The flooring in ours is a grey roll on thing that is glued in place, which has developed some air bubbles in a few places, so perhaps this is what is referred to. It is purely cosmetic, but I do assume that the flooring will have a limited life and at some point will need replacing. The floor in the saloon is not the bridgedeck, it is a second layer making up the interior and has nothing to do with the hull even if there was a soft spot.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

2.) Bows and down to the underwater areas, where the 2 hull halves are joined. If you find cracks in the bows, then clean off any anti-fouling under the waterline along the joint and get a surveyor to look at it.

We have some gelcoat cracks at the bow (and elsewhere, which is not uncommon on these boats), but if you go inside the boat, and go to the bow, it is probably the thickest part of the entire hull (light does not pass through from the outside as it does everywhere there is no coring). Can't possibly see an issue here, unless something was noted from inside the boat also. There is quite some flex in the boat while underway, which I attribute the small hairline cracks to.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Open up the steering system at the wheel and check out the state of the (push/pull) teeth if it is the original steering. These are not very good quality and wear out fast.

Perhaps different models have different systems, as ours is 100% and 15 years old. No issues with steering wheel and cable system. We do lubricate the push-pull mechanism where it attaches to the rudder connecting rod. We also inspect the mechanical fittings (and replace nyon washers as needed) where the rudder arm connects to the connecting rod, and spray some sailkote on the delrin collars that hold the rudders in place as there is some friction there.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Check out the escape hatches for sealing and corrosion, as well as state of the plastic handles used, if in doubt have them replaced.

Plastic handles? Ouch. If you see an emergency hatch with plastic handles I would replace it regardless of the condition.

We have purpose-built Goiot emergency hatches installed. All aluminium, about 20 through bolts, and very solid.

The one thing I will say, the hatches are a bit low to the water (well, it's a small boat and no room to go higher), and in turn, really get punished while underway. Assume you will be replacing the gasket, and re-bedding the hatch every 4-5 years or so. Because of the flex, and abuse from the water, the sealant simply wears out. When they leak, they leak slow and is easy to notice, so not an emergency by any means. Don't want to make this leak sound scary, it would only be scary if the hatch blew out.

We have rebedded both hatches, 2x now, once in the water, which makes for a great story, but is not easy.

I have seen the hatches on the Lagoon 37, and they are not suited for the job. I know 2 owners that simply removed and glassed over the resulting holes. Although I am not a huge fan of emergency hatches relative to the possible catastrophic failure, I am ok with them being there, and trust them.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Check rudder bearings for wear.

Replacing the bushings is a trivial matter. We just did one rudder in the water 1 week ago. Is not an issue as it takes about an hour to drop, change, and replace the bushings. They seem to last about 5 years (including a 3000 mile ocean crossing). You can get the bushing from FP or the bushing manufacturer directly, so planning is needed to get the parts (we always carry spares).

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Check for cracking where the davits go through the hulls, as well as where they go up against the backrests. This is a very poor design, and I have made reinforcing struts to take most of the load.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Agreed. If not already done add supports to the davits. It will cost about $100 in material and can do it yourself. No welding needed, just use bimini hardware, tubing, and rivets. The standard davits have too much flex in them and can cause elongation of the bulkhead through bolt where they are attached. Not a huge deal to fix (we did), but if you can prevent it before by adding supports, its much easier .



As far as sailing performance, I can't complain. The boat sails well. Worst point of sail with basic sails is dead downwind. The jib is tiny, and the spreaders don't allow a great angle with the main. We have an asymmetrical spinnaker, and it sorted the issue out just fine with apparent wind < 15knots. Over that, the jib can keep you moving.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to send me a PM. I am happy to share anything, the good and the bad.

Although, the main bad's have been issues with annoyances from Yanmar, not FP. Like the exhaust elbow, raw water seacocks, etc....

For the size boat, she does well. Crossing the Pacific definitely pushed her limits to be honest however. The boat was fine and safe, but was not a comfortable ride (keep in mind, the only other cats in the Gambier are 50+', everyone else fell off for the Marquesas).

[Dulcesuenos]

Viewed a 37 tpi today, does anyone know what parts are balsa cored and what is foam or solid? Loved.the layout and size but some concerns and other things may cross it off.

[ThisRatSailed]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Viewed a 37 tpi today, does anyone know what parts are balsa cored and what is foam or solid? Loved.the layout and size but some concerns and other things may cross it off.

I certainly am no expert as I started this thread...but my understanding is that The Lagoon 37 is end grain balsa cored above and below the waterline (I found a post somewhere where an owner indicated they found balsa coring below the waterline). The Tobago is reported as foam cored above the waterline and solid below.