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Old 12-01-2016, 19:41   #1
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To spend or not to spend(all)

I am still getting the hang of the search here so maybe this is an old "saw". Apologies if it is. Having said that here’s the scenario: $350,000 as an absolute maximum to spend on boat. Desire: a Lagoon 440/450 to liveaboard and slowly circumnavigate – 20 years. Is it better to buy an older (2008-2009) Lagoon 440 in “good” but basic condition for $230,000 - $250,000 and use the remainder of money to add things like watermaker, refit sails etc… maybe a new tender. Or better to spend all the $350000 straight up on a newer ( 2010-2012)Lagoon 450 ready for blue water? $350,000 is the maximum “boat” budget. Living fund on top of that at an average of $3000/month for 20 years. And as I seem to see a pattern of questions answered with questions: here's as many other assumptions as I can add. Single handed liveaboard. No particular regional desire for start of journey. Looking for a nice home to enjoy the blueness of this planet on in the long term. Love the flybridge. 440 is a charter layout, 450 an owners. (I guess my real question is... is there an economical imperative in purchasing a cheaper boat and then doing fix-ups or is it better to get a boat almost turn-key) I am not averse to handiwork and let's leave resale aside and fantasize that this is the last boat I will buy.
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Old 12-01-2016, 19:48   #2
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Based on my recent experience, no boat is truly "ready" when you buy it, however it might initially seem. You will always end up replacing or fixing half of the stuff on board anyway. If the basics are in good condition, i would personally buy the older boat and spend the savings on all new ancillary kit. You will then have chosen each item to suit your needs and be familiar with how it is installed.


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Old 12-01-2016, 19:55   #3
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Hey Thoreed, thanks for that! It's exactly the kind of information/experience/opinion I am looking for.
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Old 13-01-2016, 05:45   #4
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Hi Blackduck,


The key word here is "Lagoon 450 ready for blue water? " Everyone's need for blue water is different. You may have things that you really don't need and other staff that are on yr priority list but do not exist on the boat. Secondly, 450 and 440 are not the same thing, 440 sails better and faster. Go for the oder 440 but check the mast, rigging, etc carefully, these items can kiil you if yjey turn out to be defected..
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Old 13-01-2016, 07:00   #5
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

I think it might be challenging to find a 450 in the $350k range in today's marketplace...maybe they are out there though. I haven't looked for a 440, but chatting with an owner they are extremely happy with the boat. If you are projecting prices a few years out when you are ready to hit the eject button and go, then you might be spot on.

My only take on it being a little farther down the path, is that unless you are a master mechanic that has repaired and maintained boats for a living, I'd suggest getting the newest/nicest boat possible that will allow you to be out enjoying the scenery vs. in the yard or at the dock fixing everything. I've read and watched too many blogs about the struggles involved going that route. Good luck in your journey!
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Old 13-01-2016, 08:23   #6
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

If your max budget is 350k I would leave at least 20% of that for upgrades and repairs. We work on a lot of Cats used and new, there's almost always something that needs to be fixed or added to make the new owner comfortable. Give yourself a decent buffer or your 350K boat budget to go sailing can quickly grow another 50K plus.

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Old 13-01-2016, 10:26   #7
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

I see you noted it for a single handed live aboard. I would go with a smaller boat. Easer for one. Less cost. You will have major repairs over 20 years no matter what boat you get. You need major reserves of cash to make life comfortable. There are alot of little used boats out there. I would not spend it all. You get the same sunset as a multimillionaire's boat.

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Old 13-01-2016, 10:42   #8
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Always buy a boat that does not need work.
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Old 13-01-2016, 11:15   #9
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Tellie has given spot on advice...

Someone gave me this advice. Buy the boat, do a few sails, then let the boat tell you what she needs. No point buying a boat with gear that sits unused cause you don't need it. Its a waste of money.

I also concur about the size. A 440 is a pretty big boat for just one person. Of course, everyone is different. I know someone single handing a Leopard 44.
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Old 13-01-2016, 11:24   #10
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackduck View Post
I am still getting the hang of the search here so maybe this is an old "saw". Apologies if it is. Having said that here’s the scenario: $350,000 as an absolute maximum to spend on boat. Desire: a Lagoon 440/450 to liveaboard and slowly circumnavigate – 20 years. Is it better to buy an older (2008-2009) Lagoon 440 in “good” but basic condition for $230,000 - $250,000 and use the remainder of money to add things like watermaker, refit sails etc… maybe a new tender. Or better to spend all the $350000 straight up on a newer ( 2010-2012)Lagoon 450 ready for blue water? $350,000 is the maximum “boat” budget. Living fund on top of that at an average of $3000/month for 20 years. And as I seem to see a pattern of questions answered with questions: here's as many other assumptions as I can add. Single handed liveaboard. No particular regional desire for start of journey. Looking for a nice home to enjoy the blueness of this planet on in the long term. Love the flybridge. 440 is a charter layout, 450 an owners. (I guess my real question is... is there an economical imperative in purchasing a cheaper boat and then doing fix-ups or is it better to get a boat almost turn-key) I am not averse to handiwork and let's leave resale aside and fantasize that this is the last boat I will buy.
The ultimate goal is to find a suitable boat wher the previous owner prepped it for your use case and then used it not much or not at all.

This gives you a good platform to tweak, tune and optimise over time. The key is to get sailing and cruising quickly so you understand just what you really want.

I can think of many examples of multi decade monohull ownership. But I can't think of any multihull examples. Why is that? Do big cat owners scratch the itch and move on? Are cats not built for regular upgrade? Where do the old cats go?

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Old 13-01-2016, 11:44   #11
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Remember, everything you add to the bat immediately depreciates 70%. Let the previous owner take that hit; buy a "ready to go" boat.
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Old 13-01-2016, 11:55   #12
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoreed View Post
If the basics are in good condition, i would personally buy the older boat and spend the savings on all new ancillary kit. You will then have chosen each item to suit your needs and be familiar with how it is installed.

Recognizing that I am not going around the world as you are, this has been my experience, too, though.

We bought our then 12 year old boat in 1998. A new boat, same model, would have cost TWICE AS MUCH.

We looked for a year, at only this model boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Hughes View Post
Remember, everything you add to the bat immediately depreciates 70%. Let the previous owner take that hit; buy a "ready to go" boat.
We found a pristine one and bought it for a tad more than the current going rate for them at the time. It had great additional features that many others didn't have (Harken Batt cars on the fully battened main sail, rigid vang, autopilot) and was in immaculate shape.

I agree on the depreciation. But NO boat is ready to go, ever, for a new owner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Always buy a boat that does not need work.
I still put a lot of $$ into it the first year: new electrical charging system to bring it into current standards and our use with an inverter charger; new running rigging, replaced many blocks, new larger heat exchanger, new water pump">raw water pump, a cup holder at the helm ).

But all that work helped me learn the boat.

Part of the "you always have to do something to even a new boat" POV should ALSO INCLUDE getting to know the boat.

Intimately.

Good luck. Happy Hunting.
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Old 13-01-2016, 12:26   #13
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

I also back the 'go smaller and cheaper', boats are built for weekend or charter sailing not living aboard or ocean sailing. Done one circumnavigation and ready for the next usually means after a major refit! Allow 30-50% of the purchase price for repairs and upgrades in the first couple of years. You will find a lot of that nice new gear on the expensive boat is just too lightweight. My rule is to always fit stuff for a boat at least one size bigger if you want it to last.
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Old 13-01-2016, 12:55   #14
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackduck View Post
I am still getting the hang of the search here so maybe this is an old "saw". Apologies if it is. Having said that here’s the scenario: $350,000 as an absolute maximum to spend on boat. Desire: a Lagoon 440/450 to liveaboard and slowly circumnavigate – 20 years. Is it better to buy an older (2008-2009) Lagoon 440 in “good” but basic condition for $230,000 - $250,000 and use the remainder of money to add things like watermaker, refit sails etc… maybe a new tender. Or better to spend all the $350000 straight up on a newer ( 2010-2012)Lagoon 450 ready for blue water? $350,000 is the maximum “boat” budget. Living fund on top of that at an average of $3000/month for 20 years. And as I seem to see a pattern of questions answered with questions: here's as many other assumptions as I can add. Single handed liveaboard. No particular regional desire for start of journey. Looking for a nice home to enjoy the blueness of this planet on in the long term. Love the flybridge. 440 is a charter layout, 450 an owners. (I guess my real question is... is there an economical imperative in purchasing a cheaper boat and then doing fix-ups or is it better to get a boat almost turn-key) I am not averse to handiwork and let's leave resale aside and fantasize that this is the last boat I will buy.


You haven't told us your sailing experience, particularly single-handed. Many boats are advertised as good for singlehanding but in reality, are not. I am thinking of the boats where the hype is based on the fact that all lines are led near the helm, on the theory that this makes a boat easy to single hand, as if you are never going out of the cockpit.

To me, a singlehander of almost 35 years experience, and who routinely singlehands a Leopard 45 foot cat, I would ask myself, "can I dock this boat by myself, with no shoreside assistance? Can I undock it under the same conditions? Can I anchor it, up the anchor, pick up a mooring, raise the sails, drop the sails, alone? Can I deal with storing the dinghy, alone? If the answer is yes to all these questions, then start asking more questions. If no, then run. I, personally, think that docking either a 440 or 450, particularly on a low dock and with no assistance, might be a challenge, since you will have been controlling the boat from the flybridge. But, I may be totally wrong and someone can tell us just how easy or hard that is. But that's where my thinking would start, if I really wanted to singlehand. I wouldn't worry about leaving the cockpit, or things like that. My winches are on opposite sides of the cockpit, about as far apart as they can be, but by tacking on the autopilot and using the clutches judiciously and the winches as turning blocks, it all works out remarkably easily. Often better than with crew! Best of luck, and get the boat that is no bigger than you need, and that leaves you more funds than you planned for to make your desired upgrades. And think very carefully on what sailing singlehanded entails, and how you plan to go about it with any particular boat.
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Old 13-01-2016, 14:25   #15
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Re: To spend or not to spend(all)

No boat will be ready to go. They all need work. If you buy the older, less expensive boat, you can add the stuff _you_ want. You can buy that stuff used if you like or new. Buying that stuff new will cost more but have a longer useful life. Don't worry about depreciation, you're going to wear it out and then some over 20 years.

One more thing, as you get closer to blowing your budget, the stress level goes up. Having a nice cushion will be a good thing.

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