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Old 01-04-2015, 16:42   #46
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
With the "dump the halyard" strategy, the risk lies in broken battens and broken lazy jacks, I might have thought. Still, I haven't tried it, so don;t really know....
I haven't deliberately tried it either, although I would think the risk would be more getting something hung up rather than actually breaking anything, not good, in either case. But having seen that main come down so smoothly and swiftly was quite a revelation! Not enough to try deliberately, though.
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Old 01-04-2015, 16:48   #47
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Sure, it's always good to have a bunch of trainees gybing at 25 knots especially if they know the difference between a tack and a gybe and where the wind really is........

The instructor was correct. Just don't gybe.
As a matter of fact, I am a multihull instructor, on a 45 foot cat. In the Caribbean, where the trades blow hard and consistently. We would be careful gybing in 25 knots, or 5 knots, for that matter, but we would still gybe. How else could people learn, and it's perfectly safe. It's also easier than on a smallish monohull that is likely to be rolling and yawing back and forth. If my students knew nothing at all - wouldn't be the case since a catamaran course has some pre-requisites - I would go over what I was about to do, and then gybe singlehanded to demonstrate, before letting them do it. But, I can't imagine going around and tacking, instead. It's just not that big a deal.
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Old 01-04-2015, 18:00   #48
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;1790852]So don't gybe.... ever?

QUOTE]

Sure gybe all you want. I do.

But since my catamarans weighed around 300 lbs and boat speed was usually near 15-20 knots, I've pitch poled quite a few times ..... sometimes even when I was sober!

I might hesitate though if the winds were up and I was on a cruising catamaran alone 200 miles offshore.

but maybe those things are so heavy that there's no problem even if you screw up............

I do know though that one mistake on this type boat puts you into the water, but we were always pushing it to win:




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Old 01-04-2015, 18:10   #49
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

And my favorite.


Be sure and check the prebend in the masts. Some of these guys really cranked in a lot and maybe adjusted the spreader rake as well due to the conditions since there are no reef points on the sails for racing catamarans of this size.

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Old 01-04-2015, 19:32   #50
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

Speaking as a Helia owner who crossed the Atlantic in January and did a number of gybes in winds above 15 knots true, the boat can certainly take it. As others have said, a proper amount of sail is key and we had no problems with centering the traveler and tightening the main sheet.

David


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Old 01-04-2015, 22:40   #51
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

Great discussion and lots of good information. I as a brand new Cat owner I am soaking it up. I am very interested in the boards thoughts on Reefing while caught over canvassed downwind. While I plan on doing everything right I know that sometimes things go wrong and a situation may come up where I would like to reef the main going downwind. In my previous monohull I did this routinely, singlehanded, but that was a much smaller boat. Catalina 31. My Switch 51 has slab reefing with 3 reefing lines led back to the cockpit winch on the coachroof and Fredrickson Batt cars. How feasible is this in a larger cat.

Thanks
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Old 01-04-2015, 23:09   #52
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

IMO, this don't jibe thing is an outgrowth of people with more $ than experience stepping up & buying big boats. And the whole Nanny'ism mentality.
An immediate gratification thing, where some people try & buy their way past the learning curve. For if a skipper can't perform this simple maneuver in what are frankly, LIGHT, winds, then what other key areas of boat handling & seamanship are their skills weak or nonexistent in?

There will be times when you need to jibe, regardless of conditions, period. And if you can't/don't know how to, safely; to include assessing your crew, & giving them orders in a calm, clear manner especially when they may be nervous/semi-freaked out, well, then you could be putting people's lives on the line.

It's one of those most basic of sailing maneuvers, which everyone should have down cold, period. Especially as we all know that things which are far trickier to handle than jybing, always tend to materialize at 0300 when it's blowing 35kts.


PS: There are plenty of Very experienced sailors who'd be happy to give a bit of instruction in areas where new sailors & skippers are a touch weak, for free. As well as, of course, those who do such for hire.
The passing on skills & wisdom thing to the less experienced, is as old as sailing itself.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:20   #53
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
And my favorite.


Be sure and check the prebend in the masts. Some of these guys really cranked in a lot and maybe adjusted the spreader rake as well due to the conditions since there are no reef points on the sails for racing catamarans of this size.
This has nothing to do with cruising cats of 44f. They are so heavy - before the wind could lift the hull out of the water, the mast would break. And before the mast would break the sheet or the traveller would break etc. (Not saying, capsizing would be absolutely impossible - depending on seastatus, or that a boom out of control can not destroy rigg)

This is simply not comparable with racers, espacially not with small racers. On a small boat 25 knots often seems to be very strong winds. - On a cruising cat of this size 25 knots can be perceived as ideal conditions (depends on sea status)
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:55   #54
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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This has nothing to do with cruising cats of 44f. They are so heavy - before the wind could lift the hull out of the water, the mast would break. And before the mast would break the sheet or the traveller would break etc. (Not saying, capsizing would be absolutely impossible - depending on seastatus, or that a boom out of control can not destroy rigg)

This is simply not comparable with racers, espacially not with small racers. On a small boat 25 knots often seems to be very strong winds. - On a cruising cat of this size 25 knots can be perceived as ideal conditions (depends on sea status)

I believe I did see a couple cruising cats though with some prebend cranked in. It really helps flatten the main so you can point in higher winds. (same with mast rake) I wouldn't expect cruising cat owners to adjust the rig much though as racers do for each race depending on the conditions.

I figured it would be quite easy gybing on one of those heavy Cruising Cats, I was just agreeing with the instructor.

If he is training new cat owners/sailors, he may not have wanted to get into the detail of gybing in stronger winds or maybe he didn't think they were ready.

As a racer, we sometimes gybe 8 - 10 times just running back and forth up and down the start/finish line during the 5 - 10 minutes of prerace maneuvers.


Gybing is a bit more complicated on a small racing catamaran than a large cat though because you have to relocate the ballast (the sailors) to avoid pitch-poling.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:32   #55
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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I believe I did see a couple cruising cats though with some prebend cranked in.
Very few, if any, "cruising" cats have the ability to tune their masts. They don't normally have adjustable stays.
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Old 02-04-2015, 13:03   #56
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Very few, if any, "cruising" cats have the ability to tune their masts. They don't normally have adjustable stays.
You don't set mast prebend with the stays on all boats, you can set it with diamond wire tension and spreader rake.

I just noticed that some of the Lagoons for one have diamond wires and raked spreaders therefore you should be able to adjust the spreader rake and diamond wire tension for mast prebend.

The spreaders on my old Bristol are fixed but I can crank in some prebend with the forward lowers not that it helps the performance that much though.

After moving to Florida and racing against some of the best small catamaran racers in the US, I noticed some of those guys were so racing serious that they had their tools and loos gauge stuffed in their hulls to make adjustment between bouy races as the wind normally increased later in the day (or dropped way off)

It took me a few years of racing in Florida with these guys to finally learn how important mast prebend was. Hobie 16s do not have adjustable masts. It's when you step up to a higher tech boat like a Nacra F-17 that prebend comes into play. I guess for a cruiser it's up to the skipper how well he wants his boat to perform.

Found this article also after a quick search:

http://lagoon-inside.com/2013/05/mast-masting/
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Old 02-04-2015, 13:29   #57
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

Sorry, I am clearly ignorant about cruising cats. I bow to your superior experience in this area.

I'm sure lots of Lagoon owners adjust their diamond wires all the time based on wind conditions.
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Old 02-04-2015, 13:40   #58
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Sorry, I am clearly ignorant about cruising cats. I bow to your superior experience in this area.

I'm sure lots of Lagoon owners adjust their diamond wires all the time based on wind conditions.
I'm doubting they make adjustments since they are cruisers. Why would you want to.

They may not even be aware you can make prebend adjustments for more efficiency.

Usually when folks do race large catamarans though, they get a consultant that was or is a small catamaran racing Champion. I believe Glen Ashby was hired by the Australian Team in the last Americas Cup and Randy Smyth of Ft Walton Beach, FL was actually aboard and one of the Maxi-Cats that raced in the early 2000's.

He drove the boat as well and was getting the most speed out of it keeping it on the edge much of the time. Those boats were averaging around 450 miles per day and sailing around and between the weather!

I believe Smyth was on Cam Lewis' Boat:

https://www.outsideonline.com/183089...nline-archives
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Old 02-04-2015, 15:11   #59
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Sorry, I am clearly ignorant about cruising cats. I bow to your superior experience in this area.

I'm sure lots of Lagoon owners adjust their diamond wires all the time based on wind conditions.
Whether they do or not, they certainly can adjust the pre-bend. I doubt that many cruising monohullers do it, either. One of the reasons for a fractional rig is so that it can be more flexible than a masthead rig.

Many don't realize it, but the mainsheet and mainsail leech on a tripod rig, like most cats have, acts, in some ways, like a backstay. So, easing the traveller and tightening the mainsheet, in addition to trimming the sail, can also act somewhat like tightening a backstay to bend the mast and flatten the sail.
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Old 02-04-2015, 15:48   #60
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Re: To jibe or not to jibe

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Whether they do or not, they certainly can adjust the pre-bend. I doubt that many cruising monohullers do it, either. One of the reasons for a fractional rig is so that it can be more flexible than a masthead rig.

Many don't realize it, but the mainsheet and mainsail leech on a tripod rig, like most cats have, acts, in some ways, like a backstay. So, easing the traveller and tightening the mainsheet, in addition to trimming the sail, can also act somewhat like tightening a backstay to bend the mast and flatten the sail.
That's not pre-bend. Pre-bend is adjusting the tension on standing rigging to put a degree of bend in the mast before sails are set.

According to our OTB racer, that's what us cruising cat owners should be doing. Breaking out the rigging tools and adjusting the standing rigging depending on wind strength.

Adjusting the mast bend while sailing using backstay tension, running backstays, leech/mainsheet tension is a different thing entirely.
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