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Old 24-06-2018, 13:30   #91
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

Hi Riki,

If you want a bluewater Catamaran for less money that's in better shape and is an all around better cruiser then let's please talk. We have a 1996 Kelsall 36 ft SunCat. She's crossed oceans. She needs paint and other maintenance. I'll be doing that soon. Afterwards the price will more or less double.

Standing rigging is new, Refer is new. Yanmar diesel is good. Full Batten main. StackPack on mainsail.
Self tacking Job. Spini. 12v refer. Propane stove. 2 Queen size beds and one full size, in 3 seperate cabins. Main salon turns down to a 4th. Lots of storage. Davits. Great boat.

Alas we need to sell for health reasons. Dream over for us. It's breaking my heart. She's been my home for 18 years. She is in Florida. And she rides fine on her waterline. Not a sunken wreck at all.

You can contact me suncat365@gmail.com
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Old 24-06-2018, 18:38   #92
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

A last follow on note to sailorcherry and riki
Yes the sailing Zingaro cost for 2 DIY rudders included the modest $140 the Cayman Islander charged for fabrication and welding the alum sheets to alum posts. Watch the youtube video for more details.
As far as standing rigging for a Lagoon 410
Per manualslib dot com the mast is 59' high and cost of 1x19 SS 316 wire from fisheriessupply dot com (site that listed prices for the larger wires used on this cat)
it has a 10mm jump stay whcih might be 40' long, cost $6.86 ft
it has a 12 mm forestay of about 65', cost $9.80 ft
it has a 12mm port and starboard upper aft shroud each about 52' long or 104' total, cost $9.80 ft
it has a 14mm port and starboard diamond "shroud" that goes over a single 6-7' spreader with each side being estimated 50' or 100' total , I could not find a supplier of this thick wire but $12-13 ft seems reasonable
Fisheriessupply charges $40;$50 each for SS toggle/turnbuckle combo and $21-$25 for swaging
These are significant size wires - 10mm has a 16,000 lb breaking strength, 12mm 23,000 lbs and 14mm 31,000 lbs
the spreaders - contact US spars. Most retail marine stores sell spars for much smaller boats
I have no idea of shipping to Virgin Gorda and taxes . I would expect some of the standing rigging components from this cat is still at the boatyard
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Old 24-06-2018, 19:12   #93
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

Check out this thread:
Price of mast, sail and all rigging


Interesting is post #8 which says a Lipari 41 mast and rig cost for $38,000 in Florida. I don't know if that includes labor.


Post #11 says $58K for a Lagoon 420


But post #15 says $43,291 on a L450 for the whole deal including boom, furler and shipping to the BVIs. Rigger will be another $4 to $5K. That seems like a great price. Also that was this year so it is relevant.
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Old 25-06-2018, 09:30   #94
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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Damn. The worse thing after loosing the boat is to loose it again with dishonest people that don't accomplish their tasks. Good ho hear that you found out your way.
Now what it's interesting is even with a 25k loss you are going to get a profit when sold.....so IT IS POSSIBLE, and from what i can see from pics it was a very important damage.
Of course, not being submerged does make difference.....
Cheers
I'm not sure of the exact year of Mr. B's boat but we had an older version of the same boat. Judging by the hull number I'm guessing it's a 2004 (give or take a year). The current listing prices for that age are around 80-110k. Knock off 10% for broker fee and 10% for actual sales price and you are looking at somewhere around $64-88 take home. Also, any decent surveyor will find the repairs (even if well done) and most buyers are going to want another $5-10k off as a result.

If he's making money off it, it's likely due to an imbalance in the Australian market as his is the only one I have heard of in Australia. (The vast majority are in N. America with a handful in Europe)

He also had the advantage of knowing exactly what happened to the boat and it's a much smaller and simpler boat than what you are looking at...yet there was still a $25k oops to deal with and a lot of time and hassle. The risks with a much larger, more complicated boat taken second hand with minimal prior knowledge magnifies the potential risk.
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Old 25-06-2018, 21:58   #95
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

My boat was half submerged at the time, It was full of water and sand,
The salvagers saved the motor as they got it up and running straight away.

I dont know about the USA, But here they will cut a boat in half and put extra lengths in the middle of them,
Huge holes in the sides of them, No problems, They will just repair them,
And yes the repairs are as good or if not better than the original build quality,

There are three Gemini's in Aust to my knowledge, But could be more as one company was importing them here,

None of our Oceans here are protected waters, Except in the marina's.
I am parked 10 miles from Bass Straight, Which I have to cross to go any where,
So all boats are built or rebuilt to be ocean going seaworthy vessels,

Being rebuilt is not a problem or concern to surveyors here, As they know who the rebuilders are and the quality of their work,
You dont get a certificate if the works substandard,
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Old 26-06-2018, 01:08   #96
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I'm not sure of the exact year of Mr. B's boat but we had an older version of the same boat. Judging by the hull number I'm guessing it's a 2004 (give or take a year). The current listing prices for that age are around 80-110k. Knock off 10% for broker fee and 10% for actual sales price and you are looking at somewhere around $64-88 take home. Also, any decent surveyor will find the repairs (even if well done) and most buyers are going to want another $5-10k off as a result.

If he's making money off it, it's likely due to an imbalance in the Australian market as his is the only one I have heard of in Australia. (The vast majority are in N. America with a handful in Europe)

He also had the advantage of knowing exactly what happened to the boat and it's a much smaller and simpler boat than what you are looking at...yet there was still a $25k oops to deal with and a lot of time and hassle. The risks with a much larger, more complicated boat taken second hand with minimal prior knowledge magnifies the potential risk.

i am almost convinced, after reading all the replies and the fact of being in EU, that sadly the salvaged is not an option in my case. Too much to spend just to have the boat here and start with it....
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Old 26-06-2018, 04:37   #97
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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My boat was half submerged at the time, It was full of water and sand,
The salvagers saved the motor as they got it up and running straight away.

I dont know about the USA, But here they will cut a boat in half and put extra lengths in the middle of them,
Huge holes in the sides of them, No problems, They will just repair them,
And yes the repairs are as good or if not better than the original build quality,

There are three Gemini's in Aust to my knowledge, But could be more as one company was importing them here,

None of our Oceans here are protected waters, Except in the marina's.
I am parked 10 miles from Bass Straight, Which I have to cross to go any where,
So all boats are built or rebuilt to be ocean going seaworthy vessels,

Being rebuilt is not a problem or concern to surveyors here, As they know who the rebuilders are and the quality of their work,
You dont get a certificate if the works substandard,
I wasn't suggesting it couldn't be done and done well or that you might not make money on the deal. If the salvage crew got the motor dried out and started quickly, that really helps.

But if you make money given the numbers you listed I expect there is some oddity to the Australian market. Currency exchange quirk, a limited supply of Geminis or some other factor driving the sales prices up. If it was in the USA, you would at best be looking at break even. I suspect a production boat in Europe wouldn't get that same price perk.
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Old 26-06-2018, 07:39   #98
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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I wasn't suggesting it couldn't be done and done well or that you might not make money on the deal. If the salvage crew got the motor dried out and started quickly, that really helps.

But if you make money given the numbers you listed I expect there is some oddity to the Australian market. Currency exchange quirk, a limited supply of Geminis or some other factor driving the sales prices up. If it was in the USA, you would at best be looking at break even. I suspect a production boat in Europe wouldn't get that same price perk.
Cats are worth twice as much in Australia than any where else in the world,
I could not afford to buy one here, Thats why I bought mine in Fiji, Half the price of OZ,
Second choice was one the same in San Diego, All the bells and whistles also, Same price as the one in Fiji,
Landed in OZ, it goes up double the price paid over seas, Thats a fact, Not fantasy,
But I bought it to sail, Not sell,
But a 12000 mile voyage for my first ocean crossing was a bit much, even for me,
I was looking at a 40 foot prout, here, $300,000-00
A Seawind that I liked was $500,000-00
The Gem cost me 150 grand, Its worth over 200 grand here,
If I sold it it in the USA, I would lose heaps on it,

Max to pay on a wrecked cat would be 30 grand, But you have to be the first buyer,
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Old 26-06-2018, 08:10   #99
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Cats are worth twice as much in Australia than any where else in the world,
I could not afford to buy one here, Thats why I bought mine in Fiji, Half the price of OZ,
Second choice was one the same in San Diego, All the bells and whistles also, Same price as the one in Fiji,
Landed in OZ, it goes up double the price paid over seas, Thats a fact, Not fantasy,
But I bought it to sail, Not sell,
But a 12000 mile voyage for my first ocean crossing was a bit much, even for me,
I was looking at a 40 foot prout, here, $300,000-00
A Seawind that I liked was $500,000-00
The Gem cost me 150 grand, Its worth over 200 grand here,
If I sold it it in the USA, I would lose heaps on it,

Max to pay on a wrecked cat would be 30 grand, But you have to be the first buyer,
Just at a glance, that sounds like a business opportunity. I'm sure tariffs might eat up profits some profits.
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Old 26-06-2018, 10:01   #100
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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Cats are worth twice as much in Australia than any where else in the world,
I could not afford to buy one here, Thats why I bought mine in Fiji, Half the price of OZ,
Second choice was one the same in San Diego, All the bells and whistles also, Same price as the one in Fiji,
Landed in OZ, it goes up double the price paid over seas, Thats a fact, Not fantasy,
But I bought it to sail, Not sell,
But a 12000 mile voyage for my first ocean crossing was a bit much, even for me,
I was looking at a 40 foot prout, here, $300,000-00
A Seawind that I liked was $500,000-00
The Gem cost me 150 grand, Its worth over 200 grand here,
If I sold it it in the USA, I would lose heaps on it,

Max to pay on a wrecked cat would be 30 grand, But you have to be the first buyer,
I didn't think you were doing it to flip for profit but I wanted to clarify for the OP, that in most other markets, you would have been lucky to break.

Thread drift: Just out of curiosity, do you get an exemption for tariffs since you aren't a commercial importer? Just wondering if the market is that much more expensive, why someone isn't shipping a bunch of cats down-under for big profits. Seems like a no brainer if you can buy a $250k cat overseas, spend $40k on shipping and sell for $500k locally.
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Old 26-06-2018, 11:39   #101
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

The prices are higher in Oz because of the currency rates. Looking at Aussie cats on YW there are a Lagoon 420 for $316K, and L440 for $434K and a Catana 47 for $481K all in USD. These prices might be a touch high but not double. Unfortunately that Catana 47 will be A$649.000. Now that's getting up there. Aussies were doing the buying and importing thing back when their currency was strong and could turn a profit but it's not as lucrative as it once was. The A$ was at $1.10 vs the US$ in 2010 but is now at .74.
I think Mr. B purchased at the right time.
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Old 26-06-2018, 12:27   #102
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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The prices are higher in Oz because of the currency rates. Looking at Aussie cats on YW there are a Lagoon 420 for $316K, and L440 for $434K and a Catana 47 for $481K all in USD. These prices might be a touch high but not double. Unfortunately that Catana 47 will be A$649.000. Now that's getting up there. Aussies were doing the buying and importing thing back when their currency was strong and could turn a profit but it's not as lucrative as it once was. The A$ was at $1.10 vs the US$ in 2010 but is now at .74.
I think Mr. B purchased at the right time.
Assuming the prices listed weren't mixing US and Aussie dollars, currency rates would only explain short term advantages/disadvantages.

After a few months, the markets adjust for currency fluctuation and as long as they aren't moving quickly or you don't have long term contract prices to figure in, the prices will level out between areas. While that's a significant overall difference you show since 2010, it happened over 8yrs so the market should have gradually tracked it.
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Old 26-06-2018, 14:53   #103
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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Just at a glance, that sounds like a business opportunity. I'm sure tariffs might eat up profits some profits.
There was definitely an opportunity several years back, after the GFC. Boat prices held up much better in Aus compared to the US and Europe. And the Aus dollar was strong.

A lot of people did buy boats, sail them here and sell them for a profit.

It's not as good now, but there's still the opportunity to buy a boat say in the Med, cruise it here then sell at a price that will pretty much cover all your costs, thus getting most of a circumnavigation for little to no cost. A few people are still doing it.
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Old 26-06-2018, 16:57   #104
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

The exchange rate was $1.07 at the time I bought mine,
The saving I made almost paid for the GST at 10% on it,
There is no duty due to the free trade agreement,
I bought it at the right time,
But I will be selling it in Australia, So I will get an Australian price for selling my boat,
What its worth in the USA is totally irrelevant,
Whether it was mine or not is also irrelevant,

What is relevant, Is I bought a wrecked Cat missing both hulls With 8 feet of smashed fibreglass in both hulls that I bought and repaired,
And I will still make a profit on it when I sell it,
Yes I did do a lot of the interior work myself, Just not the hulls,
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Old 26-06-2018, 18:08   #105
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Re: Thinking about a salvaged catamaran

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The exchange rate was $1.07 at the time I bought mine,
The saving I made almost paid for the GST at 10% on it,
There is no duty due to the free trade agreement,
I bought it at the right time,
But I will be selling it in Australia, So I will get an Australian price for selling my boat,
What its worth in the USA is totally irrelevant,
Whether it was mine or not is also irrelevant,

What is relevant, Is I bought a wrecked Cat missing both hulls With 8 feet of smashed fibreglass in both hulls that I bought and repaired,
And I will still make a profit on it when I sell it,
Yes I did do a lot of the interior work myself, Just not the hulls,
Right on Mr. B, good for you buddy!
Yes, some Aussie friends in the biz say they love cats out there. I definitely admire the Seawinds....sailing performance first, comforts second.

Now for some reason I thought you were the owner pre-wreck and bought it back from the ins co.?Or you bought it at auction or from that owner? Sorry I didn't read everything, besides beefing up the hulls (great idea) are you keeping it original with boards or converting to mini keels?

Btw, if you did sell, how much of a salvage discount would you give? I created a poll asking opinions on market value on different levels of wrecks but no takers :/
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