The Ultimate Bluewater Cruiser?

[mdsilvers]

3Eagles, this is Mark Silverstein (mdsilvers).

If money was not an obstacle, based on the boats you have listed, I would certainly be in the Antares/Privilege range based on a number of key reasons. I have posted my comments on a couple of other threads my thoughts - and why in the end I have chosen the Antares 44i.

I have not been impressed with the overall build quality of FP, Lagoon, Leopard etc, etc - but there is a price to pay and why there is a substantial difference in $$ vs. Antares/Privilege/Atlantic. If I was on more of a budget, it would be a hard call...a very hard call. Almost gets into the Ford vs. Chevy conversation.

Everything is about tradeoffs, and these vary from person to person. For me, it was fundamentally about blue ocean seaworthiness, build quality, onboard livability, and long term value. Money wasn't as much of a factor.

I looked at the Atlantic 48 (have not actually been on one) -- and had a hard time liking the forward helm station. Preference. Would not want to get pounded with weather when reefing, trimming, etc.

[StuckInTexas]

Originally Posted by mdsilvers

3Eagles, this is Mark Silverstein (mdsilvers).
If money was not an obstacle, based on the boats you have listed, I would certainly be in the Antares/Privilege range based on a number of key reasons. I have posted my comments on a couple of other threads my thoughts - and why in the end I have chosen the Antares 44i.

Mate, I hear you about the quality and seaworthiness of the Antares, and I really want to like that boat, but I just can't reconcile the lack of performance. It's not a money issue for me either, but I'm leaning further towards the Dolphin, Lightwave, Outremer camp because they look to have good performance and offshore abilities. I can be talked off that ledge though. I really don't want to find myself in 20 foot seas with 60 knots of wind wishing I had bought the Antares. Would love to hear more reasons to reconsider it, or why you chose not to buy a higher performance boat.

[Aussiesuede]

3 Eagles, are you married to the idea of only a new build? For much of what you seem to be going after, this Wauquiez Boats for sale Spain, Wauquiez Used boat sales, Wauquiez Sailing Yachts For Sale Wauquiez (FR) cat Kronos 45 - Apollo Duck Wauquiez Kronos 45, would be almost ideal. She's a solid boat, proven design, and doesn't look at all dated. Good accomodations, as well as sailing characteristics. She's priced at what you're offering your current cat at, and won't be devaluing any furthur by the time you're done with your cruising. Great cruise ready cat...

[mdsilvers]

I don't disagree with your comment. The Antares is not as fast as an Outremer. Can't speak about he Dolphin. For me, light wind performance was important (all cats can sail too fast in heavy wind/weather IMO), and when we sailed the Antares, we were doing 5.5knots with 6-7knots of wind. That was IMO good. I have a family, 2 kids, and focused on comfort/quality/safety without bying a brick from a performance perspective. Lagoon gets a rap for being a dog on the water, but it is still fast 'enough' for cruising...and as 3Eagles discussed, needs to be slowed down at times as well.

Gunboat 66 was out of the question...

If I were to by a monhull...it would probably be an Amel 54. Not a rocketship, expensive, but rock solid, well build and safe for my family.

Here are some links that I have posted my comments regarding my voyage to making a decision.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ate-29533.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...44i-28095.html


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ge-9694-3.html

[3Eagles]

Aussiesuede: Looks like a beautiful boat, but I am afraid it falls into the "too old" category for me as a 1992 boat with over 4,000 engine hours. I also have concerns about the bridgedeck height for true bluewater cruising. She looks like she would pound a fair bit, but is in otherwise excellent condition. And the interior wood work looks excellent. Thanks for sharing!

DO WE HAVE A WINNER? MAYBE A FEW?
As for our discussion, it sounds like we have a few winners. So far I am hearing that the Catana is the best bluewater cat for the price, mixing good performance with solid construction quality. But if you can afford it, move up to the Antares (PDQ) 44.

And if you are leaning toward speed over comfort, the Atlantic 48 or Outreamer cats are the best built, bluewater tested, speed demons out there.

And get a Gunboat if you win the lottery and you can have your cake and eat it too...

(Although I have to say I was impressed with the sailing time of the PDQ 44 that completed in the Caribbean 1500 with us. They blew out their main halfway and still did the 1,500 mile trip in approx 7.5 days when it took us 9!).

[Joli]

Actually it looks like the only boat to make the trip in 7 days was the Swan 56, the PDQ and Catana were 8 days unless I'm reading the finish times wrong.

The start was 2009-11-2 12h: 00 min.

Finish times:
Swan, 2009-11-09 5h: 11 min.
PDQ, 2009-11-10 9h: 24 min.
Catana 431, 2009-11-10 13h: 12 min.
J44, 2009-11-10 9h: 01 min.


None the less, sounds like a good time was had by all.

Originally Posted by 3Eagles

(Although I have to say I was impressed with the sailing time of the PDQ 44 that completed in the Caribbean 1500 with us. They blew out their main halfway and still did the 1,500 mile trip in approx 7.5 days when it took us 9!).

[3Eagles]

I think you have your years crossed. We sailed in the Rally with Stray Kitty in 2008. Although it seems another PDQ was in this years event and did well. If you think a Swan is fast, that is...

[smj]

3 eagles
I looked through the Seawind blog but could find nothing that relates to major boat problems only some pesky problems with the systems. What problems have they encountered with their boat to make it unseaworthy.

[Joli]

Eagle, I'm not sure how to respond, the Swan was faster then the others sailing in this rally but it is certainly slower then other sailboats.

The Swan averaged 9.3 knots, the PDQ, Catana, and J44 averged 7.9 knots over the 1500 miles. About a days difference between the Swan and the others.

Originally Posted by 3Eagles

If you think a Swan is fast, that is...

[mdsilvers]

Question for the group. I have heard that Catana had a number of hull de-lamination problems over the years. Is this accurate? I know they had some financial issues as well.

[smj]

From my understanding Catana had a lot of problems with hull delam. and with secondary bonds breaking loose, bulkhead tabbing etc. About 10 years ago a brand new 431 came into Marathon with I believe all the bulkhead tabbing broken loose, some delam. and the floorboards had holes in them where a woman in high heels walked down below. I also know of a 401 that had extensive delam. to the point of repairs where the entire boat had to be awlgripped. At the time Catana was in bankrupcy and wouldn't honor the warranty.

[kiapa]

i'm surprised at the interest in the atlantic48. has anybody who wants one every done a bluewater passage with a forward cockpit?

while all the boats listed have some good features... i think that the "ultimate bluewater cruiser" has to have a few critical features: shafts (not saildrives), daggerboards, dry helm station, non-overlapping jib (for going uphill). there aren't many production boats that hit all of these. there are some beautiful "custom builds" out there that do in the 13-14m size range.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by smj

3 eagles
I looked through the Seawind blog but could find nothing that relates to major boat problems only some pesky problems with the systems. What problems have they encountered with their boat to make it unseaworthy.

I spoke with these people last weekend and they indicated they were very happy overall with the boat?

[3Eagles]

Joli: I appreciate you checking my facts, but you posted information from the wrong year. I cannot comment on the 2009 results, other than to say that second place to a swan is pretty impressive, if you ask me. Same with an average of 7.9 knots. If you are trying to imply that a 7.9 knot AVERAGE is slow, I would disagree with you.

Kiapa: Yes, I became friends with the owner's of the Atlantic 48 and they were very happy with the helm position in the middle of the boat. Having kids, they could not have a more protected helm station, away from the edges of the boat. Comparatively, our Lagoon requires that I go outside of the cockpit to reach the helm station. And the Catana is right at the very edge of the boat. Also, you probably spend less than 1% of an ocean passage at the helm, so this should not be an issue for a world cruiser.

SailDrives: There have been a lot of discussions regarding saildrives so I won't try to steer this forum toward that topic, but I have to say that we have been very happy with our saildrives. When we bought our boat I had to replace one of the boots, which put me off them from the start ($5,000US!). However, I think that if you care for them correctly (checking zincs once a month, paint the boots when you haul out once a year, change the transmission fluid) then they work really well. And I also don't have an issue with the "size of the hole in the hull" that fits the drive as the engine room is sealed off from the rest of the hull. Basically this falls into the category of: If you care for your boat properly, you shouldn't have an issue; but if you can't follow the directions for care and regularly stretch the limit on your bottom painting, SURE, you're going to have an issue and they are going to corrode! In summary, I would prefer shaft drives which are more maintenance free, but if you do have saildrives it shouldn't be that hard to keep them operating...

SMJ and Factor: The owner's of this boat LOVE their seawind. I do not think they have ever told me of a complaint personally, and we have become good friends. However, for me, I do not prefer the layout of the seawind and that is the main reason I have not included it here (although it is interesting to see how different it can be from our Lagoon - despite having exactly the same dimensions). It's not the boat for me, but I am sure the owner's of these boats picked them because they appreciate the layout.

Catana Delaminations: I would be very interested to hear about any of these issues. Any one know of anything?

[smj]

3 eagles,
The 1% of time you spend at the helm while bluewater sailing will probably be the 1% of the time that your autopilot can't hold a course. In other words it's when you would really want a good secure helm position because chances are 99% of the time the weather was a lot better. Makes an inside helm station sound like a good idea.
As far as Catanas go I like the design but they have had some structural issue's like some other production boats. I was told to stay away from the Catanas that had a 1 behind them. Ie. 401 381 etc.