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Old 28-05-2015, 13:46   #61
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

Yes on a new unused boat, it would be pretty hard to argue a lesser value than the purchase price. Different scenario for older yachts apply of course. Some good information in this thread
Importing a Boat to Australia
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Old 28-05-2015, 21:46   #62
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

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Originally Posted by Goosebumps View Post
The discussion invites the question of how do country authorities of the country in which you import value the boat to be imported. Would they accept the purchase price on your purchase contract or they value the boat themselves? It is a rather important question for many if us who want to buy and sell boat.
I think they rely a lot on the boats documentation and the original copy of the Bill of Sale. If you dont have that it becomes more problematic. If this has been misplaced then it will need to have a valuation done on arrival.

Between countries such as the US and Australia there is no sales tax as there is a 'free trade agreement', but there is GST. For other than US and NZ its +5% duty based on Bill of Sale price +cost of transporting it here from the last port of call.

There might be other charges for fumigating wood, or disposing of refrigeration/ac that doesnt meet Australian requirements for permissible coolants.
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Old 28-05-2015, 22:27   #63
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

Yeah, but it becomes problematic when say you purchase a new Lagoon in France, go cruising for two or three years and then return to Australia. Clearly the boats value has now depreciated. The question is by how much?
And if one employs a surveyor then what factors does he use to answer this question?
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Old 28-05-2015, 22:54   #64
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

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Yeah, but it becomes problematic when say you purchase a new Lagoon in France, go cruising for two or three years and then return to Australia. Clearly the boats value has now depreciated. The question is by how much?
And if one employs a surveyor then what factors does he use to answer this question?
yeah that is a problem
I'd hope that they made a currency converted depreciated version on the original bill of sale. Worst case scenario is they dont, and they add your costs from last port of call.
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Old 28-05-2015, 23:03   #65
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
For other than US and NZ its +5% duty based on Bill of Sale price +cost of transporting it here from the last port of call.
Actually there are a number of countries where duty dos not apply e.g. Vietnam. GST however always applies.
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Old 29-05-2015, 00:10   #66
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

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Exactly. The point is customs can't simply base the value of the boat on the local market as a previous poster thinks. This is because these boats would have already incurred customs and G.S.T. Further, how the boat was delivered has to be taken into account; if it was F.I.S. from France then customs valuation will include the shipping costs. If it was sailed across, then apparently freight is based on the last port of call before arriving in Australia.
Customs can do whatever they choose (depending on the country in question). In most of your western countries (austrailia included), I would expect if you come in with a value that seems reasonable from a professional surveyor, they would accept it. Likewise, they will probably accept the sales price, assuming it looks reasonable (if you buy a trashed $500k boat for $10k and then proceed to bring it back to like new, they probably won't go for a $10k value).

In other countries, it may vary wildly depending on the offical and the rules/pressures he is under.

Getting them to adjust the price of comparable local boats by factoring import related taxes, may or may not work. Especially if it doesn't fit in with thier normal process. Not saying it's not legitimate or you can't win in the end just that you can't count on it.

If I was looking at a $60k import bill, it would be worth the time and effort to see if you can get an offical to commit to a value prior to bringing the boat in.
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Old 29-05-2015, 03:40   #67
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

Strange enough when importing a car in Mozambique the parastatal Intertek will value the car and that will be the value for impirt used by customs. In the xase of a boat no such valuation, there are standards but no objective body to do caluation. For my boat they accepted the calue as found on the sales contract! The maritime authorities when registering the boat actually didnt believe that it was right import tax, too low, so they went to customs to verify before registering. I got lucky I suppose they didnt make more problems.
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Old 31-05-2015, 04:52   #68
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Outboards V Diesels

On the matter of which are best, outboards or diesels, how about using diesel outboards... like these Petrol/Gas problem/concerns solved
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Old 31-05-2015, 05:06   #69
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Re: Outboards V Diesels

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On the matter of which are best, outboards or diesels, how about using diesel outboards... like these Petrol/Gas problem/concerns solved
I'd love this as an option but...

Where are they available and what do they cost? Looking at the web site, I only saw an agent in sinapore and no pricing.

Yanmar used to put out a diesel outboard but the EPA apparently killed them for the US market.
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Old 31-05-2015, 21:31   #70
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Re: Outboards V Diesels

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I'd love this as an option but...

Where are they available and what do they cost? Looking at the web site, I only saw an agent in sinapore and no pricing.

Yanmar used to put out a diesel outboard but the EPA apparently killed them for the US market.
Yes mate, I spotted that but why not contact the company direct...They're in Queensland, Australia

Klaxon Diesel Outboard Motors
16 Pacific Drive
Banksia Beach QLD 4507
Australia
Phone: 07 3410 7560
International: +61 7 3410 7560

And I have nothing to do with this, or any other company, I just thought boat folk would be interested in diesel outboards...On second thoughts , you could import one or two direct from China...Well everything else in manufactured in China these days so why not Diesel outboards

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Old 31-05-2015, 22:10   #71
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Re: Outboards V Diesels

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Originally Posted by BillAU View Post
Yes mate, I spotted that but why not contact the company direct...They're in Queensland, Australia

Klaxon Diesel Outboard Motors
16 Pacific Drive
Banksia Beach QLD 4507
Australia
Phone: 07 3410 7560
International: +61 7 3410 7560

And I have nothing to do with this, or any other company, I just thought boat folk would be interested in diesel outboards...On second thoughts , you could import one or two direct from China...Well everything else in manufactured in China these days so why not Diesel outboards

Bill. Australia
For displacement cruising boats, they probably reprent the best of all options. On a 30-40' boat, the extra weight associated with converting an outboard to a diesel power head isn't a big deal but you get better fuel economy and with the torque you don't need to gear it down to turn a good size prop. Plus it appeases the old school thought that every gasoline boat is likely to blow up if you look at it wrong.

I think the problem is in the overall market, displacement cruising boats represent a tiny percentage of boat motors. The vast majority go on boats 25' or less where the heavy weight relative to the HP is a big draw back.

I wish this company well but won't hold my breath on them getting to the USA.
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Old 25-10-2015, 02:39   #72
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

Inboard/ outboard preference aside and respected would systems that improve user friendliness of cat add to value, of course supposing they are professionally installed.
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Old 28-10-2015, 10:02   #73
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

I have an 2003 Outremer 45 with 3gm30s and saildrives, and a Pdq 36 with outboards. Both work well. I like the turn and go of the diesel and the better fuel economy. But I also like the clean bottom and reduce weight of the out boards. Our 36 only has 3 fittoings below waterline. The engines are in pods 8 ft forward Of the stern and it has never cavitated
This past I saw several 36s and a few larger cats with outboards in the Grenadines which is not exactly calm doing quite well.
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Old 28-10-2015, 22:40   #74
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

By my experiences looking for an own boat (a trimaran for living + working) over last months I have seen 90% overprized sales offers. In total I looked at 10 boats now.

In my understanding, owners mostly overestimate the value of their boats, as they mainly take into account the original prize and the re-investments over last years plus all the work they had - beside sailing it.

I dont talk about boats at the age of 5-10 years. I talk about boats of 20-30 years age.

What I see mostly is following: Imagine, you would get the sales offer for a 25 year old Porsche 911 Turbo (in comparison the new prize of a 911 Turbo S built in 2014 is in the range of 182 Thousand US Dollars):
  • 300,000 kilometers on the clock (= equivalent to a very old diesel engine which consumes a lot of oil and very noisy)
  • Very rosty chassis (= equivalent to a coat with Osmosis)
  • 10 year old tires (= equivalent to 10 year old "tired sails")
  • the interior of leather seats is full of scratches (= equivalent of very old mattress in the berth)
  • no navigation system in the car (equivalent = no modern Chart plotter/no radar)
  • no air condition in the car (equivalent = no heating system for all years living on the boat and no hatches for tropical zones)
  • no airbag in the Porsche (equivalent = no modern safety equipment on board (Radar, Epirb, VHF with AIS))
Lets say the owner want for this 20-25 year old Porsche still 120 Thousand Dollars. Would you buy it ???? The answer is clear. By sure not.

One can get such a car at the prize of 15-20 Thousand in the market. So is the reality.

But so it is not in the world of boatings. The owners think to expect lots of money for their old "beloved ones". - Why ?

As a buyer I dont buy in the "romantic factor". What counts is the total investment and not the stories I get told by the owner that his baby has seen Alaska and laying front great barrier reef of Australia. A real nonsense of "romanticism". And I dont like to hear that his boat still can sail in stormy weather, because its normal, that a sea going vessel can sail in such conditions. It is built to do so. No extra payment for seaworthyness. Its an urgent "must", and not a "nice to have" feature paying an extra prize for.

Let us be realistically... a boat owner should think about first, what the buyer needs to invest to refit the boat to bring it to a modern standard, thats the relevant point. And still then, the hull and rig has 20-25 years of age. An owner cant neglate this. Boat design nowadays is using computer simulations, 3D design... and not old fashion "hand drawn".

Old is old... thats fact. Only because the boat gets a new painting, a new sink, a new water maker or generator it does not make it to a new boat.

So what is the correct formula ? I handle it as following:

1.)
First question: What costs a "new boat" with modern standard? - Lets say: a 40 footer at a prize of 400,000 US dollars.

2.)
What costs same boat as used, one day after the buying with modern standard ? The prize drops immediatelly 40%. So are the market rules

The loss for the new owner is on first day: 160 Thousand US dollars, rest value = 240 Thousand. Yes, terrible world this capitalism. But so it is.

Thats the rest value I think about as potential buyer... as maximum total investment (sales prize + refit).

So lets say, I look at a 40 footer of 25 years age... then

3.) I calculate all the investments to pimp it up, individually and qualitatively. It depends from boat to boat. I dont talk her about luxury and "extreme comfort". I talk about the standards of IMO/SOLAS.

E.g. new sails, water maker (so far no bigger water tanks can be installed) which is urgent on multihulls to keep them "light displacement built", new chart plotter, exchange the VHF by a VHF with AIS, exchange the old radar by a modern one with high resolution, solar panels etc. etc. etc. ... all details come into account, till the last tiny little screw.

Lets say: I'd have to invest 140,000 US dollars (for equipment + working hours (wages/fees)). In consequences....

4.) I'd then pay for the 25 year old 40 footer maximum 100,000 US dollars (compared to the 240,000), so far the boat speed can compete with the new boat of same size/brand/type. 99% of all boats wont do so.

5.) If this old boat is to be seen as slower, even with modern sails... and having less space in the cockpit or under deck... again the prize drops far under 100,000 US dollars.

Lower speed, less sportiveness is a value one buys in with newer boats. Mostly elder boats cant compete against.

So probably I'd pay maximum 60-70,000 for the old boat, and not 120,00 US dollars as demanded by the owner. The relevant factor is the ongoing investment after the buy in.
----------------
I know that owners dont like to experience such a drop down of 50%. But it has to be. Why ? If the buyer dont have enough liquid cash in reserves for repairing and refit, the boat will suffer and its substance will be damaged further on in the aggressive environment of salt water and Ultra violet light.

6.) Last aspect: The owners should deliver a qualitatively survey by a certified naval architect. It is not costly... for a boat in the range of 15-20 meters its something around 7-800 US dollars. Not too expensive I would say if one demands 120,000 US dollars.

I always wonder why boat owners are shy to orgnize such a survey.

Are they scared to read the reality printed in ink on white paper to recognize that their boats aren't of that high value they project in their minds ?

Of all ten boats I have looked at only 2 boats got a survey. One naval architect recognized osmosis, so the old boat owner had the chance to repair the damages. It helps all three: the old owner, the boat and the new owner.
Only one owner did a survey in the 90th and then again in 2014. So it was obviously what has been changed over more than 15 years. Compliment to this owner. He overtakes responsability for his own doing against the new potential owner.

With another investment of 120,000 US dollars for the refitting (in the given example) I'd get a boat with a total investment of 180-200,000 US dollars... the same values (quality, size, speed, comfort, handling, seaworthyness, safetyness etc. ...) compared to the brand new boat of 400,000 US dollars.

By all the calculations I did, I can say as "quick formula": double the sales prize then you get the extra investment. E.g. buy a boat at 40 Thousand, then you need to invest another 70-80 Thousand to modernize it. Buy a smaller boat at 30 Thousand, you need to invest 50-60 Thousand... it goes always the same procedure.

The benefits are clear to buy in a "used boat" so long its a fair sales prize.

If boat owners would follow upper described "method" (pos. 1.-6.), it would be a fair deal, isnt ?
--------
P.S.: The drop down same calculates some other aspects, e.g. extra costs for the sales contract. e.g. lawyer, flight costs/travelling expenses, delivery (transfer by skipper + crew) etc. ... an owner has to take into account all the efforts a buyer is bringing up till he has the boat in own harbour.
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Old 28-10-2015, 23:20   #75
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Re: The sales value of a used multihull

Boats aren't cars. Their manufacturing processes aren't like cars.

Comparing resale values to those of cars isn't relevant.

And the fact is, even with cars, resale values can vary hugely, depending on the condition of the car, and other factors such as it's rareness and desirability. Some cars, even mass produced ones, can be worth many times their new price after 30 or so years.

You can come up with whatever method you like for calculating what you think a boat is worth, but if someone else is willing to pay more for it...
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