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Old 03-09-2016, 23:20   #91
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

Any cat that draws more than a metre throws away one of the benefits of a good multihull, as well as being less of a sailing boat with the increased wetted area. I despair for where the volume end of the market is heading, soon the cats will be ones anchoring out.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:16   #92
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by peterp View Post
I find it frustrating trying to figure out the correct data for the different models on offer, I have listed below a copy of specs from the Leopard 45, Lagoon 45S, Helia 44, and the Nautetech Open 46. Weight and draught is important particularly draught for me, I do like the new Leopard 45 and on my short list to replace my Lagoon 400, however the draught and weight on the Leopard 45 is the worst out of those I have listed below, the Helia 44 is a standout. But what is the actual weight minus fluids of a standard craft is it light displacement?, unloaded weight? one would assume the latter then add extra's such as gen set fluids etc to arrive at a comparison weight when considering the pro's and cons of the different models. In the aviation industry a light aircraft has a certified empty weight of say 1800 lbs and has a certified max take off weight of 2800 lbs so the usefull load for my example (a aircraft I used to own and fly) is 1000 lbs that can be made up of POB, bags, and fuel, it gets a bit more complicated with weight and balance, however my point is the data listed by the catamaran manufacturers is somewhat vague, or maybe with a catamaran these figures are not that important???

Leopard 45
LOA (hull length) 13,70 m
LWL (Length Waterline) 13.10 m
width 7.37 m
Draught 1.47 m
weight 16.4 t
motorization 2 x Yanmar 45 hp
capacity fuel 700 l
Capacity solution 780 l
Capacity gray water tank 170 l
construction Simonis-Voogd Yacht Design

Lagoon 45
Architects Van Peteghem-Lauriot Prvost
Interior design Nauta Design
Length over all 13,96m / 45'10''
Beam 7,87m / 25'10''
Draft 1,30m / 4'3''
Mast clearance 22,33m / 73'3''
Light displacement (EEC) 15,00t / 33075 Lbs
Sail area 130 m / 1399 sq.ft.
Full-batten mainsail 79 m / 850 sq.ft.
Square top mainsail (opt.) 81 m / 872 sq.ft.
Furling genoa 51 m / 549 sq.ft.
Code 0 (opt.) 93 m / 1001 sq.ft.
Engine (std) 2 x 45 cv YANMAR 4JH45 / 2 x 45 hp YANMAR 4JH45
Fuel capacity 2 x 520 l / 2 x 137 Lbs
Fresh water capacity 2 x 175 l / 2 x 46 US gal
No. Of berths 6 to 12
EC certification A :12 ; B :14 ; C : 20 ; D: 30

Nautetech open 46 Fly
Length overall 13,71 m Length waterline 13,79 m Beam overall 7,54 m Draught 1,45 m
Unloaded weight (approx.) 11,4 t Engine, drive Diesel, Saildrive Engine power 2 x 40 hp Volvo Penta
Fuel tank (approx.) 2 x 300 l
Water tank (approx.) 2 x 300 l
Cabins - Heads, standard 3 to 4 Berths, standard version 8 to 12 Mainsail, standard (approx.) 69 sqm Height of mast above water line (approx.) 22,9 m Self-tacking jib, standard (approx.) 38 sqm

Helia 44
Length Overall: 13.25 m / 43.50 ft
Beam: 7.40 m / 24.30 ft
Draft: 1.15m / 3.80 ft
Air Draft: 20.44m
Displacement: 10.8 tonnes (unloaded)
Main Sail Area: 70 m / 753 sq ft
Genoa Area: 45 m / 484 sq ft
Engines: 2 x 40 hp - larger optional
Fuel/Diesel: 1 x 470 litre - larger optional
Freshwater: 2 x 375 litre - larger optional
Architects: Berret Racoupeau
Comparing data sheets for various designs is a very pointless exercise, you need to physically be on the vessels and then test sail for an extended period , anything else is pure internet dribble.
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:15   #93
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
Comparing data sheets for various designs is a very pointless exercise, you need to physically be on the vessels and then test sail for an extended period , anything else is pure internet dribble.
Well I must agree in a perfect world it would be wonderful if one could have a loan of a new model for an extended period for testing purposes prior to signing a purchase agreement, however I doubt any dealer would offer that opportunity, if it was requested no doubt the dealer would suggest one was talking tribble, so the only other option is to hire one for testing but it may be quite some time before the craft one has interest in becomes available in the hire fleet. If I ordered a new model today of those I have listed, it would be one year before I would see it in my home town of Melbourne. Data from the manufacture should be accurate enough to contribute to forming a sound decision making process of ordering a new model in MHO.
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:21   #94
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Any cat that draws more than a metre throws away one of the benefits of a good multihull, as well as being less of a sailing boat with the increased wetted area. I despair for where the volume end of the market is heading, soon the cats will be ones anchoring out.
Couldn't agree more, my Lagoon 400 draws 1.2M that's enough, I really don't want much more than that as I like to cosy up to a beach or be able to comfortably able to potter around some shallow waters, good fun.
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Old 04-09-2016, 05:36   #95
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
Comparing data sheets for various designs is a very pointless exercise, you need to physically be on the vessels and then test sail for an extended period , anything else is pure internet dribble.
Thats a good idea but where do you get hold of a boat same model you want,
the internet dribble is usually written in a contract and any boats that are new models take many months to arrive in a sailboat hire even then that boat won't neccessarly be the exact boat you want and certainly won't be cruise loaded so how would you compare, and you do need to compare because some don't take to loading as well as others, its a great statement in theory but totally impracticable so that is why some of us require the "internet dribble" we can at least then tick some models off the list and explore in finer detail the one or two on the short list of boats we select. be good if we had a testing centre for boats that very manufacturer had to put his boat through so we know the comparisons
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:27   #96
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

Getting accurate numbers for weight, load-carrying capacity, and submersion rates is very difficult. It seems FP usually publishes an unladen weight; Leopard spec sheets (from R&C) provide: 1) lightship, 2) half load, and 3) full load; Lagoon reps and the Lagoon website says their weights are half load. The only manufacturer of the big three production cats that publishes submersion weights and load-carrying capacity that are relatively easy to find (that I've been able to find on the Internet) is Leopard. I'm sure the numbers are out there for Lagoon and FP, but I've had trouble finding them, especially for the newer boats.
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Old 04-09-2016, 18:10   #97
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

Hi Jim,

Even at the point of getting the info from Leopard (which i agree have the best info for buyers) what does light ship actually mean does it include all the extras you want like genset ,ac, sails or is it a bare boat, this is the answer i sought from the 3 but no one can be definitive.

I suppose when they post figures from light ship to full at 4.5 tonnes it dosen't matter as much as some thing that only has 2 tonne capacity.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:00   #98
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by aclmck View Post
Hi Jim,

Even at the point of getting the info from Leopard (which i agree have the best info for buyers) what does light ship actually mean does it include all the extras you want like genset ,ac, sails or is it a bare boat, this is the answer i sought from the 3 but no one can be definitive.

I suppose when they post figures from light ship to full at 4.5 tonnes it dosen't matter as much as some thing that only has 2 tonne capacity.
Light ship will not include any optional equipment, it will be the base standard boat. So no will not usually include genset or aircon.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:07   #99
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Light ship will not include any optional equipment, it will be the base standard boat. So no will not usually include genset or aircon.
Hi Andrew,
if buying a lagoon the bare boat comes very bare , you have to buy at least a pack then add an anchor and chain etc some safety gear all of which i estimate at around 400 to 500 kg then add cushions to sit on add the oven, add gas bottles,add antifouling, then i would say you now have a basic boat which is the question i asked, but knowing what weight can be added would i think be helpful to keep a boat light, when we built the schionning cat we weighed everything to know what we were putting in her to keep it light even then i think we weighed 350 kg over on a 3.5 tonne boat amazing how heavy some wires ,pipe and rope can be.

so to be truthful no one appears to be able to say exactly how heavy their bare boat actually is all they can say is it is xyz tonnes light ship and zzz tonnes heavy displacement. some will tell you how far the boat will sink below her lines per kg added. mostly because they don't know what the bare boat consists of. mostly lightship boats would not be permitted to sail away because they don't have the appropriate gear on board. It is a crazy situation when Cats are subject to weight. i recall well a bloke thinking he had an 8.5 tonne boat which was fairly bare after returning from charter to be told by the crane driver that it was 10.8 tonnes, certainly left him scratching his head and wondering what to do with his new now undersized anchor after he added his gear and his friends

Allan
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:09   #100
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by aclmck View Post
Hi Andrew,
if buying a lagoon the bare boat comes very bare , you have to buy at least a pack then add an anchor and chain etc some safety gear all of which i estimate at around 400 to 500 kg then add cushions to sit on add the oven, add gas bottles,add antifouling, then i would say you now have a basic boat which is the question i asked, but knowing what weight can be added would i think be helpful to keep a boat light, when we built the schionning cat we weighed everything to know what we were putting in her to keep it light even then i think we weighed 350 kg over on a 3.5 tonne boat amazing how heavy some wires ,pipe and rope can be.

so to be truthful no one appears to be able to say exactly how heavy their bare boat actually is all they can say is it is xyz tonnes light ship and zzz tonnes heavy displacement. some will tell you how far the boat will sink below her lines per kg added. mostly because they don't know what the bare boat consists of. mostly lightship boats would not be permitted to sail away because they don't have the appropriate gear on board. It is a crazy situation when Cats are subject to weight. i recall well a bloke thinking he had an 8.5 tonne boat which was fairly bare after returning from charter to be told by the crane driver that it was 10.8 tonnes, certainly left him scratching his head and wondering what to do with his new now undersized anchor after he added his gear and his friends

Allan
European manufacturers must comply with CE certification rules. In Europe, at least. Whatever you think about these, they at least give some regulation to how much exaggeration can be made of catamaran lightness. Not all manufacturers state CE compliant displacement specifications.
It is compulsory under CE norms to indicate a boat's displacement in a ready to sail condition, namely : fuel & water tanks 50% full, crew and crew equipment weight, safety equipment and sails weight etc.

As you say, there's a whole lot of cruising necessities not included, from fans to forks, tenders to tools, and that weight adds up.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:25   #101
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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European manufacturers must comply with CE certification rules. In Europe, at least. Whatever you think about these, they at least give some regulation to how much exaggeration can be made of catamaran lightness. Not all manufacturers state CE compliant displacement specifications.
It is compulsory under CE norms to indicate a boat's displacement in a ready to sail condition, namely : fuel & water tanks 50% full, crew and crew equipment weight, safety equipment and sails weight etc.

As you say, there's a whole lot of cruising necessities not included, from fans to forks, tenders to tools, and that weight adds up.
If that is the case they may only divulge all that after you buy or when they hand you the manuals for the boat because they don't have it in brochures or on the sites .

They do however place a placard in the boats some on the switchboard some around the helm giving weights for certain CE classifications none of which seem to correspond with the stated Bare boat status
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Old 17-09-2016, 20:23   #102
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Any cat that draws more than a metre throws away one of the benefits of a good multihull, as well as being less of a sailing boat with the increased wetted area. I despair for where the volume end of the market is heading, soon the cats will be ones anchoring out.
I agree with Factor, but thinking about the 1.5 drought on the new L45 is there maybe some upside pointing in to the wind, lets assume 7 knots SOG in 16 knots true wind at 60 degrees, could the deeper drought maybe hold or close to hold that same speed at say 35 degrees, my Lagoon 400 SOG falls away quickly once I point higher than that magic 60 degrees, guess we will know when some test sails become available in the near future.
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Old 17-09-2016, 21:45   #103
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Re: The new Leopard 45!

Whats with the storing the liferaft above deck?? Your worse case scenario, besides fire, is a flipped cat. Mmmmm.
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