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Old 26-06-2008, 02:26   #181
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Hallo Alan

do not talk about what you do not know. I am not and have never been a car salesman. I do not think there is anything wrong with being one but facts are different
The Norseman was designed 18 years ago by Simonis and the Fastcat 435 5 years ago by Angelo Lavranos
The weight of the first proof of concept 435 was when launched 8000 kilo,s complete
Since that time we have come a long way , hull number 2 was 6900 kilo number 3 all electric 5800 kilo and number 4 even less.
I never put other boats down , they all have there advantages .
We did get the approval on the Green Motion Propulsion system in the FastCat 455 separate from the normally driven diesel version.
Whenever you make a statement toward me I hear a tone of envy or Jalousy in it but I do not know why that is necessary.
When at the La rochelle boat show you where not even polite enough to introduce yourself
to me after having had numerous e mails send . I wonder why ?
Anybody wanting to come to the factory is welcome and the weight claims can be verified at any time since they are not just claims but fact , your cat so far is fiction and nothing but a paper design.
There are a couple of expressions that you will find befitting you
"Put your money where your mouth is "and
"the proof of the pudding is in the eating"

Just come and sail with me and you will find out the quality,s or a real build lightweight cat.
There is no fiction in that at all.
It is correct that we have build 4 FastCats 435 and what is wrong with that ?
You seem to find it a negative
I will not post any clients E mail addresses since that is not the correct thing to do , that is something I leave up to you

Greetings and do not call on me anymore for information since you know everything better anyway

Gideon
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Old 26-06-2008, 02:34   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrhawke View Post
I guess I do need glasses. For some reason I read your earlier following comments about installing solar cells to indicate that you would not be using a binimi as shown on the 405 dwrgs, but would be copying the Fusion roof line exactly and extending it back to install solar panels. Did I misunderstand your previous comments?
Hallo IDRhawke

I will never copy the Fusions rear roof since I find it unpractical
we will use a hard top bimini like the one used on the Fastcat 455 see picture
it saves weight and givers a much better forward visibility.
I am hereby inviting you to our factory in Durban to do the weight checks before a new boat is launched.
For the new 405 we aim for a weight of 3600 kilo in a no option version.
We might come in 200 kilos lighter or heavier , we will only find out upon launching.
So far with the 435 and 455 the weights have been below target.
With our lower weights we will never tamper with safety , on contrary so far we have only made boats stronger while shedding weight and the nice thing is a lighter boat is a safer boat and actually needs less strenght.

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 26-06-2008, 03:22   #183
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[QUOTE=ldrhawke;176023]IMHO your new 405 or 410 doesn't look anything like the FastCat 455 and far more like the Fusion, but that's only my HO.

My main point was really your claimed sail away displacement of only 3600 kilo's, when Fusion 40 displaces 5,750 kilos. The bare finished hull of the Fusion is also very light. Infact, the owner I spoke with said they picked up the whole empty finished hull only using a small front end loader to pick it up and move it during construction.









Hallo IDR I am not claiming a weight of 3600 kilo but that is the aim, we will try to come in lower.!!! (I CANNOT CLAIM A WEIGHT FOR A PRODUCT NOT EVEN BUILD YET)
I know I am not the only one that is concerned with weigth and I have never claimed that.
All New FastCat purchasers where present when there boat was launched since we have an open door policy "our customers are welcome any time to come and see there cat building process."
The fact that we leave out gellcoat is not the only reason for being light weigth
there are at least another 200 ways to keep the weight down.
"It appears to me Fusions close tolerance compound curve molds they designed and built at considerable expense do as good and possibly even better than your building system, even with the extra weight of a gel coat."
I am not claiming we are better than the Fusion or others I can only state our actual weights .
By the way Fusion is using the Foam infusion pattern I have designed 5 years ago.
We test all our laminates until they break and have all new materials tested , otherwise we cannot get CE certification.
I AM NOT TRYING TO PLAY ANY GREEN CARD JUST TRYING TO MAKE OUR BOATS FOSSIL FUEL FREE AS ALL OTHER MANUFACTURERS SHOULD DO , NO MATTER IF IT IS ON BOATS OR ANY OTHER PRODUCT. AND I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT SINCE 1979
OUR OFFICE FOR INSTANCE HAS BEEN ON 100 % SOLAR POWER FOR 6 YEARS.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 26-06-2008, 06:11   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrhawke View Post
Where have I seen the New Fastcat 405 before...let me think! Anyone else see a little design plagiarism here? The total design and all the dimensions are nearly identical, even down to the replaceable hull nose.





Accept for your ability to cut nearly 40% from Fusions stated 5,750 kilogram displacement weight. Their resin infusion construction process looks pretty good to me....I just don't know how you can cut out nearly 2,000 kilograms of weight out of their strong compound curve molded parts and very thin sections they build, even using carbon fiber and epoxy. That's more reduction in weight than the empty Fusion assembled hull probably weighs. And they use light weight resin fusion molded parts for all their internal furniture structure in finishing. Fusion 40


There are quite a few designs that look similar to the Fusion, and some have been around for longer than it has. IMHO the Fusion looks much like many of the Schionning designs. Schionning Designs -

You speak of the Fusion as though it were about as light as a cat that size could reasonably be.

It isn't. I'm building a cat that is 4 feet longer, and 500kg lighter, with no exotic materials whatsoever. The Fastcat DOES use exotics ( and is priced accordingly). I have no trouble believing Gideons projected weights are achievable.
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Old 26-06-2008, 06:37   #185
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I agree with 44CC on this, I am possibly seriously in the market for a Fusion 40 and also like the Fastcat but the price is out of my reach.
I see many big differences between the two, I also agree that you could certainly build bigger and lighter as 44CC, but I would prefer most of the work to be already done.
I think there have been some unnecessary comments and jibes at Gideon, he comes across to me as a very pasionate man about the Catamaran Market, his business, environmental issues and ways in which we could all benefit and his is always willing to share this and his experiences.
I would put money on the fact that most newly designed cats will all start to follow the same trend as the more efficient designs prove their worth.
Ian
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Old 26-06-2008, 10:09   #186
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Innovation takes risk and Gideon is obviously an innovator. Innovators often upset the status quo and that is when those that religously believe in it, react to protect their beliefs; human nature unfortunatly. Gideon is also a good marketing and sales person for his products. I enjoy his ideas and creativity in a market that, if you ask me, needs more people like that. There are plenty of "me too" cats out there if anyone wants to buy one, and then there are the cutting edge cats that represent the new frontier.

Obvioulsy claims must be substantiated by any builder but lets not call them guilty of false promotion until proven so.

My hats are off to Gideon. I just hope I get to sail one of his boats some time soon.
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Old 26-06-2008, 11:32   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
His claims for the speed of his boat across the Atlantic from Capetown has grown with time. Originally he had the complete log of the trip on his site, but that got removed quite quickly, (I wonder why?) now he is claiming 9 knot averages for ocean crossings, whereas his customers blogs show 5-6 knot averages.
This is what I found with some help from the "WayBackMachine" at http://www.archive.org/index.php:

At Feb 10, 2005 this link http://web.archive.org/web/200502101...Miami09-02.pdf on African Cats homepage points to a summary of "African Innovations" trip from Durban to Miami.
The claimed total average of 8.81 knots seems a bit high when only 9 entries of a total of about 95 entries shows average speed of 9 knots or more, but I'm to lazy to recalculate the average.
This file was available at least until Apr 24, 2005. Hardly a "quick" removal.
Unfortunately a similar file documenting the voyage from Miami to Amsterdam seems unavailable on the "WayBackMachine" .
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Old 26-06-2008, 11:40   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagney View Post
This is what I found with some help from the "WayBackMachine" at http://www.archive.org/index.php:

At Feb 10, 2005 this link http://web.archive.org/web/200502101...Miami09-02.pdf on African Cats homepage points to a summary of "African Innovations" trip from Durban to Miami.
The claimed total average of 8.81 knots seems a bit high when only 9 entries of a total of about 95 entries shows average speed of 9 knots or more, but I'm to lazy to recalculate the average.
This file was available at least until Apr 24, 2005. Hardly a "quick" removal.
Unfortunately a similar file documenting the voyage from Miami to Amsterdam seems unavailable on the "WayBackMachine" .
The average speed over ground in a direkt line was 8.81 knots however we did not sail in a direct line from cape town to Miami the cored milage was 18 % higher than the direct routing or ad 18 % to the 8.81 and we get the true cruising speed.
From Miami to the Azores we cruised an average of 12.6 knots with favorable winds while from the Azores to Cherbourg in France we only did 6.5 knots per hour on one engine since there was no wind for 8 days.
From Cherbourg to Ijmuiden ( the entrance to Amsterdam) we averaged 15.6 knots with 26 knots of 140 degrees
This Fastcat was loaded to the maximum of 13250 kilo,s since it was a test.

Greetings and happy sailing

Gideon
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Old 26-06-2008, 12:36   #189
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I don't mean you any offense, Gideon, but I found it telling that the AfricanCats website hasn't changed its look much in 3 years (and looks quite a bit older). Websites are becoming increasingly central to marketing and messaging in every market, especially luxury goods.

I happen to know an experienced web developer and designer who would love to rebuild, simplify, and clarify your site... in exchange for a steep discount on a FastCat (free? ).

Back on topic, Idrhawke, your motivations don't appear to be consumer protection or clarification. Your tone is altogether too accusatory. If Gideon's lying or misrepresenting his goods, I'd be the first in line to demand an explanation, but you don't seem to have anything other than implications and a bizarre hangup on the Fusion.
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Old 26-06-2008, 13:47   #190
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If you guys think its safe to sail this boat, with it sitting nearly a foot deeper in the water under a full load, and average 15.6 knots for nearly 300km or 20 hours (meaning speeds exceeding mid 20 knots to average 15.6) is safe in any sort of sea, when the boat plows this badly with a normal load...remind me never to get on a boat that your captaining. The risk of burying the bow in even a mid size wave, overloaded this way , and the risk pitch poling at 25 knots is very high...........IF THE CLAIMS HAVE ANY TRUTH IN THE FIRST PLACE


Quote:
From Cherbourg to Ijmuiden ( the entrance to Amsterdam) we averaged 15.6 knots with 26 knots of 140 degrees
This Fastcat was loaded to the maximum of 13250 kilo,s since it was a test.
Quote:
At Light load the immersion rate is 209 kilos or 460 lbs per cm or 1300 lbs per inch but once the FastCat is immersed at 50 % of its load the immersion rate has already changed to 380 kilo per cm since the hulls widen and lenghten in the water line with a full load the cat has gone down 11.5 inches but that never happens since it is almost impossible to put that much load into her.
In the owners manual we advise not to put in more load than 5000 kilo or 11200 lbs as payload and she still sail very well.
I have however tested the FastCat 435 at it max. allowable load
for well over 10000 NM and she still sailed well.
Greetings

Gideon
I know where you can sell a lot of Fastcats to sailors that think it is safe sailing this way........


Brian..... I hope your comments land you a contract to rebuild the FastCat web site. It really does need to be brought up to date and improved.
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Old 26-06-2008, 14:13   #191
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I tried to make a gentle suggestion here, but, as I expected, passions and tempers have continued to rise. I suspect that some of the criticisms of Fastcat have complex agendas. This has become counterproductive. As I alluded to earlier, I have seen forum behavior where a poster will badger another and place them on the defensive with an increasingly toxic to-and-fro exchange which completely loses its usefulness. Once again, I plead for some decorum here. For those who wish to criticize Fastcat, please have an actual look at his boats (as I intend to do as a prospective buyer) and then level your criticisms. All else is just blowing (toxic) smoke, IMHO.
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Old 26-06-2008, 14:25   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianDavis View Post
I don't mean you any offense, Gideon, but I found it telling that the AfricanCats website hasn't changed its look much in 3 years (and looks quite a bit older). Websites are becoming increasingly central to marketing and messaging in every market, especially luxury goods.

I happen to know an experienced web developer and designer who would love to rebuild, simplify, and clarify your site... in exchange for a steep discount on a FastCat (free? ).

Back on topic, Idrhawke, your motivations don't appear to be consumer protection or clarification. Your tone is altogether too accusatory. If Gideon's lying or misrepresenting his goods, I'd be the first in line to demand an explanation, but you don't seem to have anything other than implications and a bizarre hangup on the Fusion.
Hallo Brian

Thanks for the support , we are working on a new website , I know it is outdated and have no excuse for that
All our time and effort has gone into developing better cats and other products like the range of extreme lightweight rigid inflatables and the Green mkotion system the last 4 years so that is the reason the website did not get the attention it needs. A new site has already been commisioned and will be on line within 3 months.
We have just completed our move to the new factory of 4000 squire meter that is purpose build and will have a post curing oven of 50 x 30 ft .
It will be possible in the near future for all our customers to see the factory thru webcams at any time they please.
I do not mind commends from people on the side line standing that have never in their entire life have build a boat and can only post negative comments with out any fact to support their comments , it only shows their outlook on life.


Greetings and have a good evening

Gideon
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Old 26-06-2008, 14:52   #193
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Hi all,

First I am not experienced at this forum and definitely not have much experience on cats yet.

But have used much time (1-2 hours a day since I join) on this forum and others as I am looking for a cat in the size 36-42 feet range, and try to learn.

Concerning you Irdhawke I donīt get "good vibes", here is a tread for suggestions and I cant for my bare life se how your comments do anything other then try and "paint a bad picture" of other members on this site. And that I hope is not the purpose of this site, all should have their right to an opinion and have people talk opposite wives, but to this degree.....

And donīt like it when people just are going after each other just for the face factor.

And why the moderators on this site havenīt intervened here I donīt know....

I hope as some comments that one will let all producers also FastCat prove their claims both on speed and weight, and now we have a FastCat here in Norway so time will tell.

I donīt believe all that the producers tell, but compare to Lagoon that never answer on forums (I have seen, and I was going to bay one, but are sceptic now..) Gideon and FastCat do answer and give you opportunities to talk to owners.

Hope in the future all producers will be as open (and prove their claim).

My hat off for you Gideon.

Greetings Erik

PS! I donīt have money yet to bay a FastCat so used other brands for me.
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Old 26-06-2008, 14:56   #194
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
I do not mind commends from people on the side line standing that have never in their entire life have build a boat and can only post negative comments with out any fact to support their comments , it only shows their outlook on life.


Greetings and have a good evening

Gideon
Gideon,

Most of us realize that you would not be foolish enough to invite people to witness a weighing of your boats if you could not deliver.

Keep up the good work.

When the production numbers get high enough maybe the cost will come down for me.

Until then remind Brian that the first "free" one is mine!

Thanks.
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Old 26-06-2008, 15:20   #195
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Spammy, I quite agree. I, for one, have changed my monitoring of this forum so I don't get alerts on responses to threads as almost all of it is pointless baiting. It's reasonable to share your experience after sailing a boat and have feelings on it's performance, it's somewhat reasonable to say you knew someone who sailed a boat and have second hand information, it's even reasonable to say boats with this type of stated displacement or sail area would have certain handling characteristics. But stating that a boat spec from a manufacturer must be a fake because other boats don't have those same specs is valueless. In point of fact a manufacturer that made such misleading statements would be a great risk of litigation by defrauded customers. I've known one manufacturer who had to refund the entire purchase price of a boat after being sued by a new owner who stated that that the manufacturer had made misleading statements on how well the boat performed.
I could write a book of nasty FACTS about FP, catana, broadblue, PDQ, Lagoon, Dean, etc just having been a live-aboard sailor of different catamarans for over a decade and a prodigeous follower of catamarans for even longer, but I really wouldn't want to state these things simply because it would be casting a false light on what are, in general, a group of very well made boats. An owner of a company taking time out from his schedule to write a board such as this is unheard of, and we've thoroughly abused this privilege.
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