The Evolution of "Condomarans"

[Polux]

Originally Posted by D&D

Our (admittedly modest) 'blue water' passage-making experience suggests that a solid foredeck on a cat must raise some (possibly life-threatening!?) stability issues in big seas...where does the water go when the big green ones land on that foredeck?!?

In fact, after seeing very large volumes of water moving around up there we're so squeamish on foredeck stability that we would refuse even the close-weave fiberglass mesh, preferring always open rope (or in our case dyneema) mesh, leaving the 'foredeck' virtually invisible to the seas.

There are many offshore cats with a foredeck and many are not even condo cats like the Atlantic 47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6wMxvI5Qd4

It all depends on how it is designed, the volume of water it will take and the time it will take to the water to return to the sea. I don't like it but it is not necessarily dangerous as you suggest and it can make a lot of sense in what regards to appreciate the scenery and to get a breeze on hot sunny days, not to mention (in the Atlantic case) steering the boat from the middle of it with a perfect forward view.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Polux

There are many offshore cats with a foredeck and many are not even condo cats like the Atlantic 47.

The Chris White Atlantics do indeed have forward cockpits, but they do not have solid foredecks.

Dave

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

The Chris White Atlantics do indeed have forward cockpits, but they do not have solid foredecks.

Dave

Yes but regarding what the post was referring and its dangers:

"where does the water go when the big green ones land on that foredeck?!?

In fact, after seeing very large volumes of water moving around up there we're so squeamish on foredeck stability that we would refuse even the close-weave fiberglass mesh, preferring always open rope (or in our case dyneema) mesh, leaving the 'foredeck' virtually invisible to the seas."

It is about the same thing or worse: A forward cockpit is not only not "invisible to the seas" but, contrary to a flat fordeck, will be full of water when a wave comes in.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by D&D

Our (admittedly modest) 'blue water' passage-making experience suggests that a solid foredeck on a cat must raise some (possibly life-threatening!?) stability issues in big seas...where does the water go when the big green ones land on that foredeck?!?

Same place it goes off the foredeck of a monohull; back into the sea. Shaped to divert water to the sides, and big scuppers in the cockpit.

Is it something that has to be carefully designed? Of course.

Is it something that can't be safely designed? Of course not.

There are a fair number of forward cockpit designs nowadays; haven't heard yet of a disaster attributed to such a design (early days, though).

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Same place it goes off the foredeck of a monohull; back into the sea. Shaped to divert water to the sides, and big scuppers in the cockpit.

Is it something that has to be carefully designed? Of course.

Is it something that can't be safely designed? Of course not.

There are a fair number of forward cockpit designs nowadays; haven't heard yet of a disaster attributed to such a design (early days, though).

Here's Leopard talking about its forward cockpit designs:

"After 3 years of production, and well over a hundred Leopard 44s sailing the 7 seas, the facts speak for themselves: the Leopard 44 is a sound vessel, with an immensely safe and functional forward cockpit, that has already been duplicated on the larger Leopard models as well."

"The first opportunity Leopard had to gain official support for this new design feature was when manufacturer Robertson & Caine applied for certification of the Leopard 44 by the North American and European agencies.
Upon detailed inspection of the design, and the build practices employed in producing the Leopard 44, both the International Marine Certification Institute (IMCI) and the National Marine Manufacturers Association confirmed she was built to the high standards set forth by International Standards Organization (ISO) and the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC).
Understanding that the yachts were now rated and certified for offshore passage making, it was time to bring this new catamaran with the forward cockpit to our customers.

Leopard 44 Forward Cockpit Drainage Rate vs Requirements
Organization

International Organization for Standardization American Boat & Yacht Council
Required Drainage Rate
90% of volume in a maximum of 5 minutes 75% of volume in a maximum of 90 seconds

Leopard 44 forward cockpit drains 100% in 45 seconds"

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by smj

The front cockpit is one of the things I don't like about the Bali. The Leopard 44 and 48 have the same feature yet they have a trampoline not a solid foredeck. Which would collect more water in their forward cockpits, the Bali with the solid foredeck or the Leopard with the trampolines?


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I am not sure I would personally want to put the above to the test in the conditions that we all know are out there at times (and that some of us have experienced.. ).

The new designs with some very small tramp area such as the Leopards (and others) are maybe helpfull in the scenarios we are talking about versus complete solid foredecks but I think the addition of seating wells and front porch wells really negate any benefits these small tramp areas might give in heavy "green water" conditions.
The disappearance of any open area between the rear hulls which is prevalent in the new designs (to maximize "space") is also an area of concern imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REsCat View Post
what in your opinion makes this solid foredeck so unseaworthy?

"Bob - It seems that solid "tramps" are shunned (or used to be shunned) due to the threat of putting the bows into a wave creating a big scoop with no where for the water to pass through."

Dave

Actually Dave , that remark is from SMJ

You and I have close mesh tramps from Sunrise versus the more open "rope like" that D&D, I think has, but I have personally seen and experienced (as have you) no issues on both our boats in the heavy conditions that we are all discussing here.

Bob

[SVNeko]

It's all fine and we'll for it to drain in 45 seconds after the Leopard engineers have put a hose in it in a slip. But when on the ocean and the wave period is 8 seconds and you've still go 5/6th of the cockpit full of water when the next wave comes, I'm sure you'll feel differently.

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[REsCat]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

It's all fine and we'll for it to drain in 45 seconds after the Leopard engineers have put a hose in it in a slip. But when on the ocean and the wave period is 8 seconds and you've still go 5/6th of the cockpit full of water when the next wave comes, I'm sure you'll feel differently.

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You are absolutely spot on with that critical observation.... "reality" out there in heavy unrelenting conditions that might need to be endured for hours, possibly days...

Bob

[Bulawayo]

Hi Polux, I like the way CW cats sail but I shall never subscribe to forward cockpits (nor raised helming positions with raised booms). It also leaves the the helmsman very exposed to the weather that shall bring on exhaustion even quicker. The helmsman can see the waves coming - but has no where to go for protection either. Forward cockpits also suggest forward doors and that is another vertical surface for a greenie to slam into. Whilst this is all fine in fair weather I do question what could happen in extreme conditions? This issue could be that we never get to hear about similar boats as there is no one to report what happened.
In theory, a light weight, bouyant boat might never get affected but that does not describe a typical offshore laden down cruising boat.
However, each to their own and many raised helm craft sail successfully around the globe. No doubt there are many forward cockpit boats that do similar ....... but I wont be joining this particular trend - I do not require that excitement in my life.
I would also suggest that with a few eye pads it wouldntn't be too difficult to provide a taut canvas over a forward cockpit that might reduce the capture size to a manageable quantity.

Originally Posted by Polux

There are many offshore cats with a foredeck and many are not even condo cats like the Atlantic 47.

It all depends on how it is designed, the volume of water it will take and the time it will take to the water to return to the sea. I don't like it but it is not necessarily dangerous as you suggest and it can make a lot of sense in what regards to appreciate the scenery and to get a breeze on hot sunny days, not to mention (in the Atlantic case) steering the boat from the middle of it with a perfect forward view.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

I would also suggest that with a few eye pads it wouldntn't be too difficult to provide a taut canvas over a forward cockpit that might reduce the capture size to a manageable quantity.

Leopard offers such an option but says nobody has bought it.

[leftbrainstuff]

We were moored next a big powerboat over the weekend. Its generator ran near constant. The crew hardly ever came up on deck. Gee what fun.

We like the piece and quiet. We also dont like camping. We have all the luxuries we need. We also have redundancy and can repair all our systems.

We run everything from 12V. By eliminating the inverter and inefficient land based appliances we're using less than half the house bank capacity. Fewer dc to dc conversions and no persistent ac to dc loads.

We did use our inverter once over the weekend. To iron my shirt for Monday.

Condomarans and big powerboats probably help you keep up with joneses. We dont care. We like to live on a sailboat that also looks like a sailboat and sails like a sailboat.



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[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Same place it goes off the foredeck of a monohull; back into the sea. Shaped to divert water to the sides, and big scuppers in the cockpit.

Is it something that has to be carefully designed? Of course.

Is it something that can't be safely designed? Of course not.

There are a fair number of forward cockpit designs nowadays; haven't heard yet of a disaster attributed to such a design (early days, though).

Just to be clear, the Bali has both a forward "cockpit" (sitting area) AND a solid forward deck all the way to where a crossbeam would normally be. No rope/mesh trampoline to let water through. The concern here is not the cockpit filling with water - it's the bows driving into a wave and submerging.

Dave

[smj]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Just to be clear, the Bali has both a forward "cockpit" (sitting area) AND a solid forward deck all the way to where a crossbeam would normally be. No rope/mesh trampoline to let water through. The concern here is not the cockpit filling with water - it's the bows driving into a wave and submerging.



Dave

Some would say the solid foredeck gives buoyancy and lift so the bows don't get driven down to far. Others would say the solid foredeck doesn't allow as much green water on deck as the trampolines. I say whatever floats your boat. I like a cat with long overhangs in the bow and stern, in other words a short bridgedeck with the rest of the area filled with netting.


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[smj]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

We were moored next a big powerboat over the weekend. Its generator ran near constant. The crew hardly ever came up on deck. Gee what fun.

We like the piece and quiet. We also dont like camping. We have all the luxuries we need. We also have redundancy and can repair all our systems.

We run everything from 12V. By eliminating the inverter and inefficient land based appliances we're using less than half the house bank capacity. Fewer dc to dc conversions and no persistent ac to dc loads.

We did use our inverter once over the weekend. To iron my shirt for Monday.

Condomarans and big powerboats probably help you keep up with joneses. We dont care. We like to live on a sailboat that also looks like a sailboat and sails like a sailboat.



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I have never stooped to the point of using an iron on a boat. You must own a monocondo. :-)


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[Cadence]

Originally Posted by smj

Some would say the solid foredeck gives buoyancy and lift so the bows don't get driven down to far. Others would say the solid foredeck doesn't allow as much green water on deck as the trampolines. I say whatever floats your boat. I like a cat with long overhangs in the bow and stern, in other words a short bridgedeck with the rest of the area filled with netting.


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I liked the one with the forward cockpit, if it comes with hot 25 yr. olds. hot girls.

I'd just have to remember why.

It's personal choice. Some like sailing some like socializing.

It's a choice. I'm afraid the sailing has less money?