Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-10-2015, 23:19   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Sydney/Croatia
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 46
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
"I went aboard the vessel in question at the Sydney Boat Show and was impressed (again I am a newbie looking for the cruising life: not so much a "sailor" as a potential global traveler). The challenge for me has been finding unadorned critiques - as opposed to simple criticisms: the sales people spruik their boats and condemn the competition (as you would expect). Cheers"

Blackduck, the operative words in this statement of yours are those about not being a sailor, but being a world traveler...

How do you think you are going to do that "world travel"? It requires sailing, sailing long distances for long times at sea, accepting that you may encounter very bad weather and sea conditions. That is the reason that those of us who have the experience that you lack worry about things other than the "comfort and luxury" that you seem so worried about.


Honestly, from your brief description of your goals, chartering a big catamaran (similar to the one under fire here) in the desirable places you are seeking sounds a better prospect for you than being a cruising sailor.

Jim
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. I can see how you would think chartering a big cat would be better from the short precise of my goals I submitted, but no not really.As I said I am totally new to this and so even sorting the goals is part of the journey. The old saying " you don,t know what you don,t know" applies not just to me I should imagine but others in a similar start of their journey. There is no " desirable place" just yet other than the globe. This is about exploration for me. True, that means exploring well travelled routes no doubt, but exploring is not solely the province of the pioneer. I am happy to have all my blind preconceptions shattered, swept away and replaced by sounder ideas. The notion of speed as safety is building a strong resonance with me. (Of course the sales people as opposed to the sails people will tell me there boat performs and sprints in a zephyr, so I need to seek more objective analysis there.)
Thanks to you and everyone here who takes the time and effort to respond to neophytes like myself or to simply share their experience and knowledge generally.
__________________

__________________
Blackduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-10-2015, 23:43   #47
D&D
Marine Service Provider
 
D&D's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Boat: now working Syd Harbour charters
Posts: 1,459
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by REsCat View Post
If we take your Lagoon 440 or 380 as examples, these are arguably two of the most successfull models/Cats ever produced to date by sheer production #'s... Sailing safely around the world and being enjoyed around the world as you say. These and many other models are not "condomarans" and most people on this forum, I think, would agree with me.
Thanks Bob. We agree, of course, but comments here suggests others may not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by REsCat View Post
...a FULL size stainless fridge on a "newest" current design from a builder, in this case Catana sure fits my criteria as proudly wearing the "Condomaran" label for design priority and execution.

This particular boat also had some kind of elaborate, huge rear "garage door", electrically or hydraulicly driven to open up the whole rear of the salon. I watched it in action. I wish I would have taken photos of it to show as well...amazing
That does sound amazing...and (without flogging the 'condomoran' label! ) barely (if at all?!) consistent with 'blue water' passage-making...

Each to their own eh? Whatever the evolution (or definition!) of condomorans, we wish everyone safe sailing...
__________________

__________________
D&D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 01:55   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: australia
Posts: 94
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

As an aside, the goop referred to earlier to bond bulkheads is called 'Plexus' and most (if not all) the large production builders are using it now. I don't think the lagoon 440 used it as it found its way into this application a little later. Its very strong stuff but it is a very poor substitute for traditional double taping of bulkheads. Plexus is usually ok until it isn't, it give very little sign of failure until the bulkhead is no longer attached to the hull, as has happened with a number of new boats on maiden voyages or later. The problem is the ISO (and CE) standards have not caught up with technology and are often overly strict in some areas and very loose in others (this being one of them) so if you hand a production builder a means to save weeks and significant $$ and also reduce the number of specialised laminators off a production line, with little risk to them, they will take that deal every day including sunday.
Unfortunately this is the way things are headed. One look at the dinky two piece alloy masts going onto these things now will reinforce that, and unfortunately it does really come down to "it works fine until it doesn't"...I would always be wondering if I was the unlucky guy who ended up in the "it doesn't" situation.
__________________
Doe818 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 05:03   #49
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Very few people can afford a fast catamaran, new or used, that points at 45A and can sail in 5knots of wind.

For those that cant they have two choices. Buy a production cat that is equally safe but does not sail as well as the performance cat, but will get you from point A to B even over oceans OR they can buy nothing and criticise the former on cruiser forum.
Yes I agree that performance cats are very expensive but there is another option to sail with 5k wind: Buy a performance mono-hull cheaper than what would cost the condo cat.

Off course it will not have all that space and that is what people that buy that kind of boats are after (cheap space on the water), not sailing performance.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 05:20   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,712
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree that performance cats are very expensive but there is another option to sail with 5k wind: Buy a performance mono-hull cheaper than what would cost the condo cat.

Off course it will not have all that space and that is what people that buy that kind of boats are after (cheap space on the water), not sailing performance.

You can't resist can you? Why do you feel the need to come into every possible multihull thread and do this?
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 05:23   #51
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe818 View Post
As an aside, the goop referred to earlier to bond bulkheads is called 'Plexus' and most (if not all) the large production builders are using it now. I don't think the lagoon 440 used it as it found its way into this application a little later. Its very strong stuff but it is a very poor substitute for traditional double taping of bulkheads. Plexus is usually ok until it isn't, it give very little sign of failure until the bulkhead is no longer attached to the hull, as has happened with a number of new boats on maiden voyages or later. The problem is the ISO (and CE) standards have not caught up with technology and are often overly strict in some areas and very loose in others (this being one of them) so if you hand a production builder a means to save weeks and significant $$ and also reduce the number of specialised laminators off a production line, with little risk to them, they will take that deal every day including sunday.
Unfortunately this is the way things are headed. One look at the dinky two piece alloy masts going onto these things now will reinforce that, and unfortunately it does really come down to "it works fine until it doesn't"...I would always be wondering if I was the unlucky guy who ended up in the "it doesn't" situation.
The Lagoon bulkheads are bonded to the hull, like on the vast majority of modern boats and in what regards:

"The bulkheads are installed and bonded to hull"
http://www.catamarans.com/news/boatbuilding/tour/

There are brands using bonding agents for more than 20 years, namely Beneteau (Lagoon belongs to the Beneteau group) and the boats are not falling apart: There are many tens of thousand of them out there since they introduced bonding. If they were falling apart it would be thousands of them by now.

Bonding agents are also used on car chassis or structurally bonding in Architecture. The Sydney Opera was one of the first major buildings to use bonding agents...and still stands after 40 years.

Bonding agents are not the problem but more the way they are used that can be well done or badly done. Some bonding agents when correctly used offer a superior resistance than glassed bulkheads.


Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 05:29   #52
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,135
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You can't resist can you? Why do you feel the need to come into every possible multihull thread and do this?
Stu
Take 2 Valium.
Then take a bottle of Whiskey.

See me in the morning and I will write another prescription.

__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 05:37   #53
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
You can't resist can you? Why do you feel the need to come into every possible multihull thread and do this?
I don't care if they are monohull or multihull, I like them both, I mean some of them and some I don't like, being them monohull or multihull. They are all sailboats.

I like sailboats that sail well with little wind and what I have said is true and relevant regarding the post I was commenting:

Originally Posted by cwjohm
Very few people can afford a fast catamaran, new or used, that points at 45A and can sail in 5knots of wind.

For those that cant they have two choices. Buy a production cat that is equally safe but does not sail as well as the performance cat, but will get you from point A to B even over oceans OR they can buy nothing and criticise the former on cruiser forum.

There is a third choice regarding having for the same price of a condo cat a sailboat that can perform not only very well in light winds but also very well upwind, even if at the cost and a lesser condo interior space (that is also true in lesser measure between a performance cat and condo cat), a monohull performance cruiser.

What is wrong in providing accurate information?
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 06:04   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,937
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The Lagoon bulkheads are bonded to the hull, like on the vast majority of modern boats and in what regards:

"The bulkheads are installed and bonded to hull"
http://www.catamarans.com/news/boatbuilding/tour/

There are brands using bonding agents for more than 20 years, namely Beneteau (Lagoon belongs to the Beneteau group) and the boats are not falling apart: There are many tens of thousand of them out there since they introduced bonding. If they were falling apart it would be thousands of them by now.

Bonding agents are also used on car chassis or structurally bonding in Architecture. The Sydney Opera was one of the first major buildings to use bonding agents...and still stands after 40 years.

Bonding agents are not the problem but more the way they are used that can be well done or badly done. Some bonding agents when correctly used offer a superior resistance than glassed bulkheads.


Polux.. using Plexus for bonding bulkheads is very common in the entry level boats and like you say has been going on for years. Your suggestion that it is equal to or probably stronger than a properly glassed in bulkhead is just not true. Plexus is a tenacious glue, on that there is no debate but there have been many of these bonds fail over the years. Simply put if you glue a 3/4" bulkhead in place the total load is spread over 3/4". When a bulkhead is properly glassed in place that same load is transferred over several inches on both sides of the bulkhead so when the boat is being sailed hard and is wracking and twisting the bulkheads transfer the loads into the hull. Fortunately the thousands of boats that are built this way spend 99% of their time in marinas.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 06:35   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 680
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Pollux,

I am not a naval architect nor a composite engineer, but I know a couple of each. I can tell you that they hold the practice of bonding in bulkheads in very low regard. One of them used the term negligent. It's a personal and professional opinion, not a legal one. That is in regard to using bonding inappropriately, ie where best practice would dictate another method to ensure higher safety margins for this particular application.

These companies use these bonding materials to save time and money, pure and simple. Catamarans on the high seas are subject to tremendous wracking moments and shock loads. Even more so than your family Toyota and the Sydney Opera house. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true. And yes, cats have higher loads on them under these conditions than Beneteu mono hulls, as well.

It has been stated perfectly, "These materials are fine...until they fail."


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 06:55   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackduck View Post
Hi there, By "newbie" I mean absolute new to sailing and cruising. So in my na´vetÚ I am assuming I want a living machine I can sail on with an emphasis on happily sail on.
I suggest you do some charters to start getting some exposure to what you'll have to choose from. If you have to do this via "crewed" charters - with a Captain due to your inexperience - this could at least get you aboard some more sophisticated sailing machines vs the typical bareboats. No, this won't be cheap, but how else will you know what you want? Another recommended activity is to find a way to sign on as crew on some deliveries or passages. In time you'll be able to charter bareboats. (It wouldn't hurt to get some formal training/education.) Of the available bareboats you'll need to really shop around to find the few that are more performance oriented vs the garden variety offered by the most popular charter companies.

Later you wrote:
Quote:
The notion of speed as safety is building a strong resonance with me.
Now you're getting an introduction to what every boat choice becomes - a compromise of competing interests. An oft repeated axiom is that of high comfort, high performance, and low cost - you can only have two out of the three.

Good luck,
Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 07:18   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 680
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Just checking my notes on the cases of bonding failure that I saw, via photos, they were of Lagoon 420's that came to Australia. The Plexus failed because it was applied to both timber (the bulkheads) and flowcoat (hull). Plexus is methylacrylate based and , designed to be applied to raw polyester surfaces to bond them together, NOT timber or the waxy surface of unsanded flowcoat.

Major fail on Lagoon's part for shoddy build practices.

Not to be outdone by it's disregard for proper use of material, ie. Plexus, is the fact that the major structural bulkhead failed in several boats by splitting bottom to top. That was caused by not fibreglassing the bulkhead and routing holes through it to take the anchor well finger biscuits which, of course, we're not sealed timber plywood so had rotted. So just to be clear, the major structural component of the boat failed, not once, but in several cases from atrocious build technique. In Oz we call that shoddy workmanship, and sometimes we call a spade a spade. Sorry about that.

Oh and the corners of the door frames thru had all cracked because the door corners were, wait for it, square corners, not rounded. That is engineering 101 stuff, not to put squared corners in a loaded structure.😂




Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 07:42   #58
Registered User
 
tbodine88's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Austin TX
Boat: West Wight Potter 19
Posts: 719
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

My 2 cents:
When I was trying to sleep in the Marina in Antigua one night I was continuously awakened by a neighboring cat's air conditioning cooling pump cutting on and off.

I was happy when they left.

I had no air conditioning I adapted to sleeping in the Caribbean breeze instead.
__________________
Frimi Captain
Tom Bodine
tbodine88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 10:02   #59
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,764
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Polux.. using Plexus for bonding bulkheads is very common in the entry level boats and like you say has been going on for years. Your suggestion that it is equal to or probably stronger than a properly glassed in bulkhead is just not true. Plexus is a tenacious glue, on that there is no debate but there have been many of these bonds fail over the years. Simply put if you glue a 3/4" bulkhead in place the total load is spread over 3/4". When a bulkhead is properly glassed in place that same load is transferred over several inches on both sides of the bulkhead so when the boat is being sailed hard and is wracking and twisting the bulkheads transfer the loads into the hull. Fortunately the thousands of boats that are built this way spend 99% of their time in marinas.
It is not only on entry level boats. High end boats use it to even if the more conservative brands also use tabbing but more for a publicity matter than anything else (conservative clients). High performance race boats, even offshore ones, use a lot of bonding.

The thing that is really better is when you introduce the reinforcements and partial bulkheads on the hull itself, fibraglassing all over them (as part of the interior fiberglass hull layers) and then complete with full bulkheads glassed or bonded to the hull, but that is really rare and so expensive that almost nobody does that anymore.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2015, 10:31   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,937
Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It is not only on entry level boats. High end boats use it to even if the more conservative brands also use tabbing but more for a publicity matter than anything else (conservative clients). High performance race boats, even offshore ones, use a lot of bonding.

The thing that is really better is when you introduce the reinforcements and partial bulkheads on the hull itself, fibraglassing all over them (as part of the interior fiberglass hull layers) and then complete with full bulkheads glassed or bonded to the hull, but that is really rare and so expensive that almost nobody does that anymore.
Years ago when they designed an offshore racing boat they were built like the proverbial brick **** house and they could be taken anywhere for several lifetimes. These days not so much. I remember when the Aussi America's Cup boat broke in half when the winds exceeded 25 knots and the designers were asked questions and they said, the ideal raceboat crosses the finish line in first place and then breaks. We know it was perfectly designed without 1 extra pound of structure in it. Now I know they were kidding but they also wanted to make a point.
Modern sailboat structures use thin hulls and a liner bonded with Plexus for the main structure. The bulkheads are bonded to the liner. If the liner fails and they do from time to time the bulkheads don't do much.
I've seen some of your examples of higher end boats using bonding but I also noted that they combined glassed in main bulkheads with other structures bonded directly to the hull, not liners.
Modern construction methods for entry level boats are done for only one reason....its faster and cheaper.
There is a good news part of the story...for 99% of the boats made they are perfectly constructed for the intended use and I totally understand the builders not spending a bunch of extra money making them stronger and longer lasting than they need to be. Those "conservative" builders you refer to can fill that little niche for those who want a boat built up to a standard and not down to a price.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
380: evolution of the 380 / 380 S2 dominiccc Lagoon Catamarans 4 25-04-2012 13:56
Mahe 36: Mahe36 vs. Evolution jbinbi Fountaine Pajot 1 31-05-2011 07:12
Mahe 36: Mahe 36 Evolution BIRDDOG Fountaine Pajot 12 06-02-2011 13:21
For Sale: Mahe 36 Evolution Jan Iversen Classifieds Archive 2 17-11-2010 07:09
Evolution 25 bitman Monohull Sailboats 0 02-11-2009 05:35



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.