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Old 20-10-2015, 15:38   #31
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Sadly too many cats are going this route to pander to the charter market. Look at Leopards with their trend of forward cockpits with a suspended hard top over them and then picture what shall happen when a big greenie sweeps over from forward, swiftly followed by his multitude of followers. If the 'lid' is not peeled off, then what happens to that nice big glass door? Or the several tons of water in the forward cockpit? As for raised helm positions.....that is another whole rant just waiting to happen.
The trouble is that this only supplying what the market demands.
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Old 20-10-2015, 15:51   #32
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Oh Dear, boats with more dunnies than my house, bigger refrigerators than my house, probably weigh as much as my house!

But they sail really well, just look at the ****** (brand name hidden cause they will string me up) owners forum, they all sail really well.
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Old 20-10-2015, 16:33   #33
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

No use knocking the builders. They do their homework and build exactly what we are looking for, how else could they profit and stay in business?
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Old 20-10-2015, 17:08   #34
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Sadly too many cats are going this route to pander to the charter market. Look at Leopards with their trend of forward cockpits with a suspended hard top over them and then picture what shall happen when a big greenie sweeps over from forward, swiftly followed by his multitude of followers. If the 'lid' is not peeled off, then what happens to that nice big glass door? Or the several tons of water in the forward cockpit? As for raised helm positions.....that is another whole rant just waiting to happen.
The trouble is that this only supplying what the market demands.

I don't think they are pandering to just the charter market as in my opinion the majority of catamaran buyers are looking for a cat like this, heavy on amenities and not much care given to performance or sea keeping qualities. Not my cup of tea, but there's nothing wrong with people that desire what I don't. Thankfully there are still some builders that are putting out catamarans meant to sail foremost yet still maintain a degree of livability.


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Old 20-10-2015, 17:08   #35
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

"I went aboard the vessel in question at the Sydney Boat Show and was impressed (again I am a newbie looking for the cruising life: not so much a "sailor" as a potential global traveler). The challenge for me has been finding unadorned critiques - as opposed to simple criticisms: the sales people spruik their boats and condemn the competition (as you would expect). Cheers"

Blackduck, the operative words in this statement of yours are those about not being a sailor, but being a world traveler...

How do you think you are going to do that "world travel"? It requires sailing, sailing long distances for long times at sea, accepting that you may encounter very bad weather and sea conditions. That is the reason that those of us who have the experience that you lack worry about things other than the "comfort and luxury" that you seem so worried about.

Honestly, from your brief description of your goals, chartering a big catamaran (similar to the one under fire here) in the desirable places you are seeking sounds a better prospect for you than being a cruising sailor.

Jim
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Old 20-10-2015, 17:19   #36
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

We are on the same page, SMJ. The market is driven by charter companies who order large quantities of cats; they are the major buyers, be it as shared ownership or direct purchasers. Its supply and demand. If you or I ask for a boat that meets our requirements from these companies then I would guess we shall not get much success.
Thankfully, there are still some companies producing what I would call ocean going boats.


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I don't think they are pandering to just the charter market as in my opinion the majority of catamaran buyers are looking for a cat like this, heavy on amenities and not much care given to performance or sea keeping qualities. Not my cup of tea, but there's nothing wrong with people that desire what I don't. Thankfully there are still some builders that are putting out catamarans meant to sail foremost yet still maintain a degree of livability.


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Old 20-10-2015, 18:18   #37
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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I talked with the salesman seated and made note of the FULL size stainless refrigerator
Bob,

I think you are mistaken. That's not a refrigerator, that's a safe room for a family of 4 in case of pirate attack.
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Old 20-10-2015, 19:08   #38
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

As Tellie said about the Bob Dylan song "the times they are achanging".
40 years ago we built or bought multihulls because (a) they were faster than any mono at that time (b) you could anchor in shallow protected bays or dry out for antifouling and maintenance (c) take out more women as they preferred the level sailing. The main difference between then and now however is the fact that then everyone actually sailed their boats. From what I see of the boats around now most seem to be motoring 80% of the time whether there is wind enough to sail or not and the majority stay in protected waters so why not own a floating block of flats. I saw one of these the other day and I kid you not he must have been doing 15knots under motor, the rig would have been slowing him down why would you even bother with it. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how people can buy boats like this maybe that is why there are so many on the secondhand market when the owners discover what dogs they have purchased. Believe it or not a Catana is one of the few Condomarans that i would own but I am referring to earlier models. There are now so many of these badly designed motor sailors out there that I am almost embarrassed to tell people that I own a Cat but at least mine sails well in under 10knots of wind and actually goes to windward. They say each to their own but i find it hard to believe that some of these boats are even allowed on the water and with one make in particular their safety record shows why.
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Old 20-10-2015, 19:14   #39
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Jim Cate Agree completely.good post.
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Old 20-10-2015, 19:29   #40
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

With the greatest respect to the many here who are more experienced than our mere ~20,000nm on our beloved vessel, we are moved to suggest that there appears to be a great and growing risk in this thread of painting with too broad a brush.

Simply put, our concern is that one could take the direction of many comments here to lead to the conclusion that, because a certain production builder (in our case Lagoon, the greatest offender) delivers many (perhaps most) of its vessels into the charter market...therefore vessels from that builder are by definition 'condomorans'...and, with a tiny further step of reasoning, both bad sailing vessels and unseaworthy for 'blue water'. We suggest that conclusion does a vessel buyer reading this thread a real dis-service...and we further suggest that conclusion is simply wrong.

A reasonably enquiry behind the inferences throughout this thread must note that (1) there are many (literally thousands of) vessels built with comfort as a high priority by the major vessel builders (Lagoon, FP, Leopard) and (2) many of those are NOT in charter and (3) such vessels are travelling the high seas around the globe very safely, most of them (in our experience anyway) sailing reasonably well as they do so. So if simply being a Lagoon (or FP etc) means a vessel is a 'condomoran', that label should not be confused with ability to sail safely and in comfort.

We admit to many comforts on our vessel. Two frigs and a freezer (all of the small, vessel variety...80L?) plus some galley and other comforts (albeit no microwave nor dishwasher nor washing machine) and loads of volume (which we often fill with stock for our business, making our vessel anything but light!) probably put us into what many here class as a condomoran. That said, we seldom use our engines when there's any sort of breeze about...and we have certainly been in some big seas and winds, very safely.

We hasten to further admit there are many vessels whose performance will surpass ours, but we also know we pass plenty of sailing vessels in our travels...and -- This is the important bit for us -- we do so safely and in comfort.

Enough of a rant. Our point is that being a large production vessel (in our case a Lagoon 440) may make a vessel a 'condomoran' in the eyes/opinions of some, but it absolutely does not mean the vessel is either not a sailing vessel, or unseaworthy.
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Old 20-10-2015, 20:36   #41
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Thanks Jim & Kinta. Wise words that reflect a concern for safety first in a cruising boat.

D&D, since you discuss safety, I just have to say that I had a good look at one specific aspect of boat construction at the Annapolis show. And that was whether builders had bothered to properly install bulkheads. Some do, and some don't. The ones that don't are the companies that are designing and building for the charter market, and are the condomarans. We all know who they are. Bulkheads are not solidly tabbed to hulls, they sit in a channel with some goop, usually grey, and that is what is supposed to provided structural integrity to the boat. Is that safety? It is cost cutting to the point of negligence IMHO, unless you just sail in protected waters, which is fair enough. Charter boats are turned over in 3 to 5 years, so near enough is good enough I guess. But then those boats are purchased by cruisers.....

So, what we have seen in Australia are some of these boats that get across the big water, and they are virtual write offs. Split mast bulkheads, loose bulkheads, bulkheads out of the channel and the goop has let go (what a surprise), loose rigging from the softness of the boat, interior furniture that can be pulled apart by hand....all caused by some rough weather over a few days.

Sure, it doesn't happen to every boat, but it just makes me wonder how many owners have such issues and don't know it? You might find issues if you inspect after such conditions are experienced.

I think a good yardstick for Bluewater cruiser would be if ALL the bulkheads run right to the bilge, not just the floor level, and that ALL bulkheads are fully glassed in, not just sitting there with some goop to hold them in. Bulkheads do have a structural purpose, they are not just there to make different rooms 😉






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Old 20-10-2015, 21:23   #42
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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whether builders had bothered to properly install bulkheads. Some do, and some don't. The ones that don't are the companies that are designing and building for the charter market, and are the condomarans. We all know who they are. Bulkheads are not solidly tabbed to hulls, they sit in a channel with some goop, usually grey, and that is what is supposed to provided structural integrity to the boat. Is that safety? It is cost cutting to the point of negligence IMHO, unless you just sail in protected waters, which is fair enough. Charter boats are turned over in 3 to 5 years, so near enough is good enough I guess. But then those boats are purchased by cruisers.....

So, what we have seen in Australia are some of these boats that get across the big water, and they are virtual write offs. Split mast bulkheads, loose bulkheads, bulkheads out of the channel and the goop has let go (what a surprise), loose rigging from the softness of the boat, interior furniture that can be pulled apart by hand....all caused by some rough weather over a few days.

Sure, it doesn't happen to every boat, but it just makes me wonder how many owners have such issues and don't know it? You might find issues if you inspect after such conditions are experienced.
We do not profess to be marine engineers or surveyors. That said, our bulkheads appear (in our admittedly unprofessional eyes) to go to the bilge, apart from openings to permit bilge drain hoses, which openings are gooped to effect water seal between compartments. Our bulkheads are certainly heavily gooped along the hulls, although whether that is their only attachment to the hulls we can't say.

We can also say, however, that our bulkheads are certainly still travelling well after a reasonable amount of sea miles (including "across the big water" to OZ and seriously heavy weather and seas on numerous occasions both during the crossing and since) and there are no evident signs of cracks or even strains around any of the bulkheads. We also know of several other vessels that may(?) fall within your 'condomoran' definition whose bulkheads also appear to be travelling very well after many 'blue water' miles.

In any event, your view of "negligence" as applied to some very professional and successful builders seems to place your expertise well above ours.
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Old 20-10-2015, 21:31   #43
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
With the greatest respect to the many here who are more experienced than our mere ~20,000nm on our beloved vessel, we are moved to suggest that there appears to be a great and growing risk in this thread of painting with too broad a brush.

Simply put, our concern is that one could take the direction of many comments here to lead to the conclusion that, because a certain production builder (in our case Lagoon, the greatest offender) delivers many (perhaps most) of its vessels into the charter market...therefore vessels from that builder are by definition 'condomorans'...and, with a tiny further step of reasoning, both bad sailing vessels and unseaworthy for 'blue water'. We suggest that conclusion does a vessel buyer reading this thread a real dis-service...and we further suggest that conclusion is simply wrong.
.
.
.
Enough of a rant. Our point is that being a large production vessel (in our case a Lagoon 440) may make a vessel a 'condomoran' in the eyes/opinions of some, but it absolutely does not mean the vessel is either not a sailing vessel, or unseaworthy.
D&D, My Purpose for starting this thread was to share an observation that completely floored me when I saw it.
It was not to draw attention to particular brands or regurgitate tired labels of "condomaran" on brands such as Lagoon, FP, Catana etc etc. If we take your Lagoon 440 or 380 as examples, these are arguably two of the most successfull models/Cats ever produced to date by sheer production #'s... Sailing safely around the world and being enjoyed around the world as you say. These and many other models are not "condomarans" and most people on this forum, I think, would agree with me.
I don't think the comments so far have singled any brand out at all but most have agreed that a FULL size stainless fridge on a "newest" current design from a builder, in this case Catana sure fits my criteria as proudly wearing the "Condomaran" label for design priority and execution.

This particular boat also had some kind of elaborate, huge rear "garage door", electrically or hydraulicly driven to open up the whole rear of the salon. I watched it in action. I wish I would have taken photos of it to show as well...amazing
In my mind if you decide to put a house size stainless fridge on board then we will see house size stoves, and house size jacuzis etc to adorn the fitouts of this new rapidly growing segment of "Condomarans"

Bob
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Old 20-10-2015, 22:01   #44
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Very few people can afford a fast catamaran, new or used, that points at 45A and can sail in 5knots of wind.

For those that cant they have two choices. Buy a production cat that is equally safe but does not sail as well as the performance cat, but will get you from point A to B even over oceans OR they can buy nothing and criticise the former on cruiser forum.
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Old 20-10-2015, 23:04   #45
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Hi Blackduck - good luck on your transition to a cruising life. By "newbie" do you also mean that you're new to sailing altogether? - or just new to cruising?

I get asked pretty often by wanna be cat owners which cruising cat they should get. Even before asking how much they can spend I ask, "Do you want a sailing machine you can also live on, or do you want a living-on machine that you can also sail?" There is no correct answer - just an answer that may help you define your boat market.

Dave
Hi there, By "newbie" I mean absolute new to sailing and cruising. So in my na´vetÚ I am assuming I want a living machine I can sail on with an emphasis on happily sail on. My intention is to cruise the world or at least that part between cancer and Capricorn. I had been thinking about a new boat (FP new 40. Bali 4.0 or Open 40) but some horror stories here and some sage advice from others has me now recalibration my boat-spend / living fund to a second hand boat. Again, I know nothing but how things feel to me and the lagoon 440 is on my radar. I love the flybridge ( I have a passion for heights!)
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