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Old 10-02-2016, 15:45   #166
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Polux "The only thing I really don't like are the kind of guys that think that their own choice regarding his perfect boat is the best and more logical choice to all the sailors or all the cruisers."

You finally post something I can agree with, then in the next sentence stick your foot back in your mouth. Speed is not the be all and end all to all sailors.

Polux "I would give up probably sailing if I had to sail some slow and sluggish boat"

PS: I own two Condomarans and I am very happy with both.
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Old 10-02-2016, 16:40   #167
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
Polux "The only thing I really don't like are the kind of guys that think that their own choice regarding his perfect boat is the best and more logical choice to all the sailors or all the cruisers."

You finally post something I can agree with, then in the next sentence stick your foot back in your mouth. Speed is not the be all and end all to all sailors.

Polux "I would give up probably sailing if I had to sail some slow and sluggish boat"

PS: I own two Condomarans and I am very happy with both.
There is nothing objectionable about the statement you claim ended up with his foot in his mouth. It just seems to have struck a nerve with you.

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Old 10-02-2016, 18:01   #168
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
Polux "The only thing I really don't like are the kind of guys that think that their own choice regarding his perfect boat is the best and more logical choice to all the sailors or all the cruisers."

You finally post something I can agree with, then in the next sentence stick your foot back in your mouth. Speed is not the be all and end all to all sailors.

Polux "I would give up probably sailing if I had to sail some slow and sluggish boat"

PS: I own two Condomarans and I am very happy with both.
I don't see where is the contradiction:"I would give up probably sailing if I had to sail some slow and sluggish boat" is just my take regarding my personal tastes regarding sailing and cruising, a very personal one that I know it is very particular and a minority one.

Saying this: "The only thing I really don't like are the kind of guys that think that their own choice regarding his perfect boat is the best and more logical choice to all the sailors or all the cruisers" means that I don't try to impose my particular choice and tastes regarding sailing to others and that I acknowledge that there are many different personal tastes and that the perfect boat to one can be a nightmare to other.

What has that to do with you having two boats of the same type and be happy with both? what would be a bit odd was if you had a cruiser racer trimaran (or a cruiser racer monohull) and a condocat and would be happy with both boats.
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Old 10-02-2016, 18:25   #169
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

The way the vast majority of those boats are used, that fridge makes perfect sense.
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Old 11-02-2016, 04:53   #170
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

Slow and sluggish is most yachts, especially those large enough to live aboard in comparison to say a hobie 18, windsurfer, Kitesurfer or 18' skiff where 20+ knots is cruising speed. Unless you plan on crossing oceans on one of those ( all of them have ) then you have to make compromises of performance for comfort. All of us have a different level of acceptable compromise, and most of us have a budget that also plays a part in the selection process. The number on the speed log is just a number, as are the hours or days at sea on passages. It's a rewarding feeling to get the best out of your boat in the conditions given, and for me the feeling is the same on any of the above craft as it is for a mirror dinghy or a condomaran, or a 50' racing mono, and there's really little difference in sensation between doing 6kt or 12kt boat speeds for me. There does seem to be a pretty good mix of performance/comfort 36'+ cats on the new boat market at affordable prices so I hope that trend continues, even though the majority of the market is consumed by charter cats where performance can easily be compromised by maximising space for charterers.
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Old 11-02-2016, 07:26   #171
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

As somebody who prefers multihulls, but has owned a mono and would own one of every kind of boat there is if I could afford to do so(!), I can't help but put in my $.02 worth, and it's not directed at anybody.

Our 36' trimaran can be sailed very quickly - a la up to 20 knots, but that doesn't mean we set out to do so every time. I enjoy moving at 12 knots vs 6 because it's easy on our boat, but there is a huge difference in 12 and 20 knots. Most importantly, we sail for the enjoyment of the sport, what we see along the way, and enjoying all the new things we experience and learn.

I would never think to criticize monohulls or condomarans for the ovens, watermakers, wind generators, etc.... that make them more comfortable or desirable - just because the trimaraner's philosophy is "keep it light."

If you'll forgive the analogy, there are cars that can do 100+ mph, and although many of us own nice cars we don't drive them at those speeds. If I want to drive that fast I'll head to the track; if I need to get somewhere really quickly, I'll take a plane.

There is a place for every boat, as long as it's designed and built to be seaworthy. If you don't like a specific class of boat, move along. I promise I can find somebody who will design a boat that is lighter, faster, etc.... for you!
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Old 11-02-2016, 12:59   #172
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by LeeV View Post
As somebody who prefers multihulls, but has owned a mono and would own one of every kind of boat there is if I could afford to do so(!), I can't help but put in my $.02 worth, and it's not directed at anybody.

Our 36' trimaran can be sailed very quickly - a la up to 20 knots, but that doesn't mean we set out to do so every time. I enjoy moving at 12 knots vs 6 because it's easy on our boat, but there is a huge difference in 12 and 20 knots. Most importantly, we sail for the enjoyment of the sport, what we see along the way, and enjoying all the new things we experience and learn.

I would never think to criticize monohulls or condomarans for the ovens, watermakers, wind generators, etc.... that make them more comfortable or desirable - just because the trimaraner's philosophy is "keep it light."

If you'll forgive the analogy, there are cars that can do 100+ mph, and although many of us own nice cars we don't drive them at those speeds. If I want to drive that fast I'll head to the track; if I need to get somewhere really quickly, I'll take a plane.

There is a place for every boat, as long as it's designed and built to be seaworthy. If you don't like a specific class of boat, move along. I promise I can find somebody who will design a boat that is lighter, faster, etc.... for you!
Well said!
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Old 11-02-2016, 18:45   #173
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Slow and sluggish is most yachts, especially those large enough to live aboard in comparison to say a hobie 18, windsurfer, Kitesurfer or 18' skiff where 20+ knots is cruising speed. ....The number on the speed log is just a number, as are the hours or days at sea on passages. It's a rewarding feeling to get the best out of your boat in the conditions given, and for me the feeling is the same on any of the above craft as it is for a mirror dinghy or a condomaran, or a 50' racing mono, and there's really little difference in sensation between doing 6kt or 12kt boat speeds for me...
I agree that all sailboats are slow, if compared with other means of transportation and that the speed is just a number but the feeling you have at the wheel it is not. Some boats are heavy on the wheel, slow to respond, others, sportive or racing sailboats are light on the wheel, have a fast and effective response and you can place them on a seaway exactly where you want, not approximately.

I agree that it is all about sensations but sensations are not only related with the superior ability to "drive" the boat but also with boat acceleration on the gusts and with speed.

There are some that use sailing on a cruising boat merely as a tool for a inexpensive way for moving around, others (less) have as much pleasure sailing the boat as cruising and those will want a sportive lively boat. If I had not pleasure sailing my boat I would be probably cruising on my roadster that is a lot of fun to drive
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Old 11-02-2016, 20:48   #174
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

PaulineOz, I'm with you, although I also undestand Polux's mentality. I wish I could afford a high-performance cat that was also comfortable for my wife and I. However, unlike Polux, although I suspect like yourself, I would never give up cruising because I cannot afford a "mine is bigger, or better than yours" boat.

I love cruising, even on my cheaper, sluggish boat ( I refuse to call it a yacht) because:

- I love the saense of accomplishment of making passages - sometimes more challenging ones due to our relative lack of speed and windward ability - and arriving at new destinations.
- I love a night passage out of sight of land and, on clear nights, sailing in a star-lit, circular dome.
- I love the 'couples' solitude - just the women I love and myself.
- I love living largely 'off the grid.'
- I love dolphins frolicking in our bow wave.
- I love bioluminescent wakes.
- I love experiencing new lands and peoples without the restraints inherent in resort vacations - without having a gate and a time table.
- I love the sound of the sea.
- I love tuning/trimming my boat to maximize her performance, however modest it may be.
- I love making love to my wife on the trampoline under the stars.
- I hate storms, but I love the sense of accomplishment once you are through them.
- I love how small and insignificant the seas can make me feel.
- I love being able to view the heavens without the interference of ambient light.
- I love being able to turn a rainy day into a way to augment our tanks and watermaker.
- I love being free to go where I want and, subject to wind and weather, when I want.

I could go on and on. I feel sorry for those who are frustrated racers and who cannot enjoy the cruising experience without being able to gloat that mine is bigger and faster than yours. I understand them, but I feel sorry for them nonetheless. Whatever they are, they are not in my opinion 'cruisers'. And they are missing the enlightemment that comes with experiencing and understanding our insignificance, rather than our superiority, in relation to nature and the wonderful planet that we all inhabit.

Brad

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Old 11-02-2016, 21:42   #175
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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I love cruising, even on my cheaper, sluggish boat ( I refuse to call it a yacht) because:
...
+100

That's a wonderful evocation of the cruisers ethos.

It's just a pity that so many armchair sailors here can't understand that this is what cruising is all about.
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Old 11-02-2016, 22:02   #176
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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I love cruising ... because:


.....

Soooooooooooooooo well put Brad! Bravo...applause...all that stuff!!
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:23   #177
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

here, here Brad
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:41   #178
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

That was a nice post, Brad. When you are capable of such, why do y ou waste your time with all the silly mono vs cat nonsense?

Cruising is about much more than what sort of boat you do it in, and your post shows that you actually know that. If ignoranuses (thanks, Ann for reminding me of that wonderful word!) criticize catamarans from a no-knowledge base, well, it ain't th end of the world, and ignoring them isn't a bad response IMO.

Anyhow, today i have had pleasurable interactions with folks from a motor cat, a beautiul classic Heresshoff Mobjack, a Peterson 44, and a Kiwi one-off sloop and a Thunderbird. None of us slagged each others boats, and in fact, that subject (our boats) never came up. We're all cruisers...

Jim
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:03   #179
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

"Ignoranus"

Love it - not just ignorant, but an a**hole as well
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:00   #180
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Re: The Evolution of "Condomarans"

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
PaulineOz, I'm with you, although I also undestand Polux's mentality. I wish I could afford a high-performance cat that was also comfortable for my wife and I. However, unlike Polux, although I suspect like yourself, I would never give up cruising because I cannot afford a "mine is bigger, or better than yours" boat.
....
I could go on and on. I feel sorry for those who are frustrated racers and who cannot enjoy the cruising experience without being able to gloat that mine is bigger and faster than yours. I understand them, but I feel sorry for them nonetheless. Whatever they are, they are not in my opinion 'cruisers'. And they are missing the enlightemment that comes with experiencing and understanding our insignificance, rather than our superiority, in relation to nature and the wonderful planet that we all inhabit.

Brad

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First of all it seems that contrary to you I really understand that different sailors and cruisers do appreciate different things regarding cruising and sailing without calling the others frustrated.

And I guess you really does not really understand what I have said. It is not about cruising but about sailing and sailing pleasure and it has nothing with a boat being bigger or better. A really sportive boat has normally quite spartan accommodations and is much less luxurious than a condo cruiser.

Almost all would call it a worse boat for cruising even if obviously a much better boat for sailing. It is regarding this balance between cruising and sailing that sailors and cruisers have different tastes.

Nothing to do with size also, except if we talk about cats that need to have a given size to be Ocean going seaworthy. Regarding monohulls you can have lots of fun on Ocean going on sportive 30fts, performance cruising boats that are not neither expensive neither big or flashy. Certainly your condo cat is a lot more impressive, expensive and certainly bigger.

The ones that have and sail these boats are not racers neither frustrated racers. If they were racers they would have a racing boat or a top cruiser racer a boat that contrary to these one you do well in compensated racing.

You seem incapable to understand that some just want a rewarding boat to sail, a lively boat that can deliver sensations. Sailing on a sluggish boat does not deliver sailing pleasure even if it can be a good mean to an end: going from place A to place B.

For some that appreciate as much the pleasure of sailing as they appreciate cruising those sensations are fundamental to enjoy sailing pleasure and they will have a boat that can deliver them not because they want to do racing (and can't) but because life is to short for not having fun doing the things we like.

The same happens in what regards cars: Do you think the owners of Porsche's or Ferrari's, or less expensive sports cars like some Mazda, Toyota, Honda or Lotus, have them because they are frustrated racers? or because they enjoy the pleasure they have in driving them?

With this I do not mean that your style of cruising, your sailing style, your lifestyle and your boat are not completely right for you, just that you should not call frustrated racers to the ones that enjoy sailing, life and cruising in a different way and style.
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