Technomadic Boat Recommendation Wanted

[technomadia]

Hi Drew, great comment. Thanks!

Originally Posted by drew23

Chris and Cherie - I'm going to say what everyone is thinking, as gently as possible: your list of wants kind of falls under the old saying "Good, fast, cheap: pick any two.". You're probably not going to find a boat that is comfortable, spacious, room for a master cabin and guests and seating for dinner for six inside and out and fits into a standard slip with a shallow draft.

I am very aware of the tradeoffs, and of the ones you mention the "standard slip" is probably the one that we are most willing to give up. We vastly prefer camping off grid, and I would want to stay out of marinas as much as possible as well.

Anchored or on a mooring ball is cheaper, much more privacy, better ventilations, and better views. Sounds good to me.

Originally Posted by drew23

For instance, my technomadic office needs have always been minimal - a good computer, a high-quality office chair, basic office desk, filing cabinet, espresso maker, lamp and stereo are all I need. However, since moving aboard I've lowered my standards to a laptop, instant coffee and a pillow for my lower back, while propped up in a single berth that is half taken up with tupperware storage bins. Sure, I could work from the main berth, but during the winter months if I don't air out the underside of the mattress for at least a few hours every day I get mold under there... it's that sort of thing that you can only learn from living aboard.

Sounds pretty similar to the things we learned living in our trailer. Our first RV was just 16' long and was severely lacking in plumbing. The amount of space we would have in even the smallest practical boat we are considering would be palatial in comparison.

Originally Posted by drew23

Probably what needs to happen is you will have to spend some time aboard a few different boats so that you can get a realistic idea of what's possible and within your budget. You might find a large mono (or multihull) with all the creature comforts you seek within your price range, but it'll definitely be well-used, and the realities of upgrading and maintaining a boat that size and vintage are going to come as a severe shock: the ocean is actively trying to eat boats all the time, and the larger the boat the more work it is and the more expensive the parts.

We've gotten to know some of the liveaboard community here in Coral Bay, and have checked out their boats and some monohulls for sale. We need to see more higher-end boats though - not cheap old beaters. I've written to a broker over in the BVI to try and schedule a day checking boats out, and was totally ignored.

What is the best way to get a chance to look at a wide variety of boats? Walking docks is useless if you want to see the insides...

There is a nice looking Fountaine-Pajot Venezia for sale that we hope to check out soon too.

Originally Posted by drew23

You've got a huge advantage over most folks trying to move onto a boat, in that you've already learned the hardest lessons: how to minimize your life and how to live in a small space with another person. I would definitely start by reading some "how to start cruising" books - the one Livia mentioned is a really good start.

I will continue to read more, but most of them come across not all that different that the "learn to fulltime RV" resources around. I learned a lot more just diving in and doing it.

Originally Posted by drew23

Also - and I wish someone had told me this three years ago - the best possible thing you can do to learn what you need to know in the shortest amount of time is go to school. There are support networks all over the country for sailing and cruising education; I'm currently taking courses here in Vancouver on offshore weather and ham radio operation, for instance. Seek out the sailing support groups and attend the seminars by folks who have lived aboard and cruised the world for decades.

We went to all the sailing seminars at the Miami boat show last year, and most of them were extremely underwhelming and/or thinly disguised sales pitches. I've learned more in an hour hanging out with friends who have lived aboard. And interestingly, most of them never took any sort of courses, but instead learned by doing...

But I am definitely open to leads on good courses to take...

Thanks for all the wisdom,

- Chris

[technomadia]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Go sailing first then buy , making lists is all but useless .

I heard the same conventional wisdom about buying / living in an RV. And after years of experience, I would say the following to anyone who asked:

Experience in rentals is useless.
Instead - make a lot of lists. Do a lot of research. Buy the closest to your theoretical ideal you can without stretching, and absolutely don't buy new.

Then, spend a few years learning all your systems inside and out, learning all the tricks and secrets of what it is like living day-to-day.

This is how you learn the difference between your theoretical ideal, and practical reality.

Only then will you have an idea what you really want. And you will be well positioned to get it. Two or three years in, you'll be ready to upgrade. For a lot of RV'ers, that actually means downsizing!

I don't really see why boats should be any different than RV's in this regard.

Thoughts?

I'd love to hear from people who "bought first" and regretted it. Anyone?

[goboatingnow]

I've never owned an RV but I have sailed most of my adult life. I'd be wary of comparisons. The reason is that you don't really assess RV s in relation to how well they get you down the road. Boats are very different, it's not about interior comparisons ( though that's obviously a factor) , you need to understand what to access in relation to sail performance , tradeoffs in weight, speed, ease of handling, etc. This is not going to come from books or lists.

Hiring or charter is very useful. Firstly you can sometimes hire close or the actual model you're interested on and a week onboard tells a lot.

The other thing you've not alluded to is the attitude of your partner. This can be the single biggest influence on the boat. Have you determined that she likes sailing and if so what are her criteria. I would be very wary of taking the RV analogy too far.

I do find it strange that you resist going sailing with others as a means to broaden your knowledge, sure jump in at the deep end, but it's not a particularly clever thing to do

The reason I day lists are useless is that until you have a bit of sailing under your belt you can't really build a useful list

Experience in rentals is useless.
Instead - make a lot of lists. Do a lot of research. Buy the closest to your theoretical ideal you can without stretching, and absolutely don't buy new.

Then, spend a few years learning all your systems inside and out, learning all the tricks and secrets of what it is like living day-to-day.

Well it's a strategy, but not necessarily a good one it's works for cars sure. Remember the sea is different , if by liveaboard you mean tied to the dock that's different. ( you really don't need a boat, just a floating RV). If you intend to sail then you need some teal life experience and knowledge. Given your self stated lack of knowledge this is the bit I'd fix first. Don't necessarily charter, crew on a delivery or two.

Most newbies don't set out to go 100% on board on their first purchase, there're weekend warriors, many are club racing where the criteria are very different.

For me the key issues are (a) motion under sail (b) handling under power (c) sailing handling (d) deck access at sea. ( e) can the galley be used at sea. (f) can you sleep comfortably at sea ( an area where modern boats often suffer) I'm less concerned about interior layout per say now than I was before.

As I said above the attitude and perspective of your partner is hugely important.
Dave.

[technomadia]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Most newbies don't set out to go 100% on board on their first purchase, there're weekend warriors, many are club racing where the criteria are very different.

Ah - I think this might be the key difference. In both RV-life and boating, I have never had any interest in the "weekend warrior" style.

To me, it just isn't worth the effort to move into something for a weekend (or even a week). No sooner are you there than you are packing up to leave again. I'm the same way with travel - you can barely get to know a place if you are there for less than a week. I like stops to be measured in multiple weeks or even months, not days.

Doing something for a weekend, or even a week, just seems like a waste of time.

This is I think the root of my reluctance to charter... I don't enjoy doing things at that pace, and I certainly can't see paying a small fortune for the experience.

In other words - when I travel I'd much rather spend a month or two renting a cheap apartment in the heart of a city than spend a week at a five-star resort on a beach. All the charter companies I see advertising seem to be catering to (and priced for) the "five star" crowd, which is so not appealing.

I am however very open to finding alternative ways forward to get more experience...

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I've never owned an RV but I have sailed most of my adult life. I'd be wary of comparisons. The reason is that you don't really assess RV s in relation to how well they get you down the road. Boats are very different, it's not about interior comparisons ( though that's obviously a factor) , you need to understand what to access in relation to sail performance , tradeoffs in weight, speed, ease of handling, etc. This is not going to come from books or lists.

Most people buy an RV to move from commercial parking lot to commercial parking lot, so there really isn't a lot to assess. Our style however was all about extended off-grid travel, and even off-road travel. There were certainly a lot of very complex tradeoffs to assess. Different that boats for sure, but I'm not sure as big of a difference as you are imagining.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The other thing you've not alluded to is the attitude of your partner. This can be the single biggest influence on the boat. Have you determined that she likes sailing and if so what are her criteria. I would be very wary of taking the RV analogy too far.

I agree that this is a crucial issue.

She grew up sailing hobbie cats and loves being on the water. She has had a strong positive reaction to catamarans we've seen, and a rather negative reaction to the monohulls. We are researching what feels best for us together.

And of course, there is a chance that we might decide that sailing isn't right for us next, or even ever. We may decide to move to Thailand next instead, or something else entirely...

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I do find it strange that you resist going sailing with others as a means to broaden your knowledge, sure jump in at the deep end, but it's not a particularly clever thing to do

Egads, no - I am seeking out every opportunity to go sailing with others. I've made friends with some of the liveaboards here in Coral Bay and we will be getting time on water with them, and I've even been helping with boat repair. Just the other day I helped lower a diesel engine into a hull, and soon I'll be helping replace a rudder.

I love sucking up as much knowledge and experience as I can from folks around me. This is fun stuff.

On the other hand - I just checked out the "Fast Track To Cruising" sailing school / week-long charter. For the two of us it would cost nearly $10k. I've seen liveaboard-ready (though admittedly old beaters) boats actually selling for less than that around here.

Is there some middle ground I am missing?

And btw - I do appreciate all the feedback, even the negative stuff. *grin*

- Chris

[Bergovoy]

im guessing that not onlly is LOOKING inside kinda important but understanding how she operates and responds and all that... you can only get so much by looking and feeling...

erego the suggestion to go out on the water in a couple different boats that you maybe interested in...

kinda like renting a car before you buy it... a lot cheaper to spend a couple hundred bucks renting a car for a week or more before you are sure you really want to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a car...

your points are all good, but if i had better access to boats I would do it... and in fact probably will be doing it as my plans to relocate directly onto a boat wont work for similar reasons... I will be renting a home and starting the search over when i get there...

[Patient]

Originally Posted by technomadia

On the other hand - I just checked out the "Fast Track To Cruising" sailing school / week-long charter. For the two of us it would cost nearly $10k. I've seen liveaboard-ready (though admittedly old beaters) boats actually selling for less than that around here.

Is there some middle ground I am missing?

And btw - I do appreciate all the feedback, even the negative stuff. *grin*

- Chris

Hello Techno.

Sounds like you had a fantastic time with your RV experience and I congratulate you on your desire to move to another theater of adventure.

Coming from a Techno-background as well I can completely understand your thought process. I don't think anyone will plain outright discourage you from your method of thinking, but rather stress a bit of caution and perhaps some practical considerations.

To say it softly, researching online for hours on end is not going to prepare you for the unpredictable situations that living on a boat or even sailing one will bring about.

My partner and I have every asset of ours up for sale right now and have spent the last 2 years preparing for our transition to the cruising / live aboard lifestyle. That process began with the very course you seem to think is too expensive.

Next came our first bareboat charter in the BVI last march. Despite our brains being filled with every bit of instruction and preparation we thought possible, we still faced some very challenging scenarios.

We too visited a few boat shows before completing our courses and I can relate to your experience. It really was just us wandering around the boats, peeking inside the cabinets.

Here is the point I am going to highlight. A year later after actually being instructed by a seasoned circumnavigator about boat electrical systems, mechanical systems, diesel engine maintenance and of course the plethora of other things that you need to be conscious of while in the water, our next boat walkthrough completely changed.

When we walked on to our charter boat one of the first things my GF did was pop open the engine panel and check out the stuffing box as they mentioned it had been recently restuffed. I too had acquired the knowledge of what exactly needs to happen to make sure we were going to be safe and of course have a great problem-free charter for the next 10 days. We found a rigging problem, a faulty fresh water pump, unresponsive GPS antenna and a ton of other things quite quickly.

This goes without even mentioning the amount of practice that was required to negotiate slips, pick up moorings, navigate, problem solve, provision properly, passage plan, understand weather and of course last but not least.. the endless art of learning how to sail well.

That trip alone drastically changed our ideas of what boat we wanted for ourselves and we moved instantly from the idea of 45+ feet to merely 35 feet as a good size range. We also wanted a classic cutter, protected prop, deep keel, far better sea comfort than the Bene offered us, solo rigged cockpit, soloable preventor setup and seriously an endless list of other things that would never been possible to fathom without... sailing first.

Different strokes for different folks. I am trying to state it gently, but the statement "There isn't a difference between buying car and boat" has been the last departing words of many confident self-taught sailors. Personally, I am very very thankful that I dropped my ego and realized there is nothing wrong with being taught by someone that has been sailing around the world for 3 decades, before charting (A requirement at some places for obvious reasons) and of course before buying a boat.

I wish you both luck and look forward to reading about your adventures.

[technomadia]

Originally Posted by Bergovoy

kinda like renting a car before you buy it... a lot cheaper to spend a couple hundred bucks renting a car for a week or more before you are sure you really want to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a car...

Well, this exactly illustrates the problem!

The kind of cars typically available for rental are stripped down generic models, dull things like Chevy Cavaliers. You can't easily rent a Prius, or a Porsche, or a diesel pickup, or... Any of the cars I'd actually want to buy I could never practically rent in advance. I have no choice but rely on professional reviews and the online sharing of other owners.

Similarly, it seems like most of the boats in the "charter fleets" are stripped down, underpowered, nearly new, generic models with as many bedrooms and bathrooms as possible stuffed in.

In other words - they couldn't be any more different than the boats that we would actually be most interested in buying.

Or am I missing something?

- Chris

[Bergovoy]

you can rent porsches and diesel trucks and probably a prius, ithink...

it comes down to dollars and cents...

if youare going to buy a hundred thousand dollar car, and never had one before, but had the money now, wouldnt you want to at least try it out.. go for a test ride, at least?

whether you rent it or test ride, is the same thing... it gives you the idea of what you are getting.

all I am suggesting, whether you rent/charter, or find someone who is willing to take you out for a few hours, a day, would be better then plopping down $50k on something you dont know if it drives like a 'pig', or a racer? or whether it is rigged for you to be able to handle it or if it can be rigged differently...

i would nto spend a brick of money on something without having that info...

currently, i am looking for a boat between $5k and 15k, that isnt worth spending any money on renting or chartering, and although my original plans were similar to your, (Actually worst as i was hoping to buy a boat, without even seeing it), i now know I will have to see it first, and hopefully try it out and hopefully have tried out others so i can compare, and know what 'PIG' means...

[farotherside]

kinda off-topic, but here's a tip of the sort you can only learn aboard:

if you're looking at a monohull, try to get one with a cabin amidships. the v-berths at the bow of the boat and the berths at the stern have a *lot* more motion at anchor when there's a wind blowing and you don't have perfect shelter... it could (and will) mean the difference between your bed rocking back and forth and your bed rapidly moving vertically up and down six feet!

Also, almost all of those cats that you're looking at, with many cabins and bathrooms, come in an "owners model" that is setup more for a single owner than a charter... ie less bathrooms and cabins, more live-aboard features. Maybe make "owners model" part of your search criteria...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by technomadia

Neat looking boat - what is it?

Its a Beneteau Evasion 36.... nice sailor as well...

[technomadia]

Originally Posted by drew23

Also, almost all of those cats that you're looking at, with many cabins and bathrooms, come in an "owners model" that is setup more for a single owner than a charter... ie less bathrooms and cabins, more live-aboard features. Maybe make "owners model" part of your search criteria...

Indeed! Though it seems like a lot of older former-charter cats have been retrofitted along those lines. I've seen bedrooms converted into large master bathrooms, offices, or extra-large pantries.

One other plus I've read about for cats - less bouncing around while in anchorage. I can completely see your point of the downside of sleeping in a V-bearth.

- Chris

[Bergovoy]

im not sure about open water sleeping yet.. but, i look forward to rocking up and down and back and forth in a v-berth...

I cant recall the name of the product that goes under the mattress, but between that and the motion, i plan on sleepin like a rock...

in fact, i have been sleepin on a la z boy for months, and hate it... I cant wait to lie flat...

[apneseth]

Techno,

Don't let the guys get you down. Renting before buying works for some, buying before renting works for others.

I grew up in my fathers 42' Hallberg Rassy and I eventually sailed it from Norway to Brazil and back with a couple of friends. When it came to buying my own boat to live in with my wife and new born son I chose a 27' Jeanneau Fantasia. Budgetary constraints obviously had something to do with it, but I throughly enjoyed the year and a half we lived on it. Yes we spent most of the time in a sheltered harbor so the lack of size and the lack of amenities did not matter that much but when we did go sailing with it the ease of handling a small boat with a limited crew and the simplicity of finding room for it in just about any harbor made it a joy to own. Being 199 cm tall, or 6'6" I didn't have standing headroom in it though and when my wife started working again the finances improved and the nuisance of not being able to stand up while doing the dishes became a major issue.

We then bought a Beneteau 373, typical charter boat if you like with 3 double cabins cramped into 36' length. We didn't rent it before we bought it in the fall of 2006 and as this was in November a test sail was not really that appealing. We have certainly enjoyed that boat as well and the sail reviews that you can find on the web are in my opinion quite accurate. Whilst living in the Beneteau I have gotten two daughters so that there are now 5 of us living in it. We have therefore decided to upgrade to a Spirited 380 catamaran.

The Spirited is a boat that isn't available in Norway so after having found and researched the boat on the web we took the family down to Tunisia to have a look at it. We sailed it for a couple of hours and spent a night sleeping in it. Although only two feet longer than our previous boat it both feels bigger and is bigger. Like you have discovered a 360 degree vision like you have in a cat or deck saloon boat adds to the liveability - particularly in colder climates where you wouldn't lounge in the cockpit.

All the research in the world will not tell you which boat you will be happy with and even less so which boat you will not be happy in. Personal experience is the only thing that matters. For this reason I will only offer you one piece of advice - go with the smallest possible boat you can conceive yourself to be in.

Good luck - and keep us posted.

[Bergovoy]

there is a difference between you and techno, and mayb others.. in that you grew up onboard... and erego, gained some expereince albeit not having to 'rent'...

[Microship]

As a dyed-in-the wool multihuller (Microship, Fulmar, Hogfish, Corsair 36), I was very open to cats when looking for my long-term ship. To be fair, there weren't very many in the Pacific Northwest, and the problem was confounded by bridgedeck clearance compatible with my height (6'4"), budget, and space needs.

But all that aside, I found that I didn't like the long tubes of the floats. Awesomely wonderful open main salon, then tight little spaces below... not even enough for a decent office. And this was $250K-ish boats.

It is a lot more net space than a mono of the same length, but the best parts have to share with galley, salon, pilothouse, and entertainment needs. Sleep space, offices, and labs are a compromise.

Of course, with a sufficient budget, that problem goes away...

You're invited to go for a sail with me on Nomadness if you're still in the research phase on your next jaunt through Puget Sound... and I can show you some friends' monohulls with highly useful interior arrangements that, knowing you, I think might be well suited.

As you know, I'm a multihuller by nature; it still feels a little odd to be driving an 18-ton lead mine. I even wrote the Multihull Primer... but I am happy with the change and am enjoying the relative lack of weight-sensitivity and the ability to build an 8-foot workbench with integrated piano and sloping equipment consoles....

Cheers and fair winds!
Steve