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Old 07-02-2012, 17:41   #16
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Originally Posted by DJBrookster
In answer to the original post, it would be worth enquiring if the same rules apply to boats as to motor vehicles. In certain cases the VAT is levied at the market value rather than the original cost. Just contact the VAT office they will be glad to help.
If you have owned the boat outside the EU for some time then the tax offices will generally be quite lenient in arriving at a "book" value. they do regard it as a standard " wasting " asset. Hence it can be treated such with depreciation applied. I found the authorities in palma to be quite accommodating. However if it's a new purchase ( ie new to you ) then they will usually use the most recent sale value as the actual value.

Again forget the sirens that indicate there's a legal way around it. The only way around it is not to enter the EU.

Dave
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Old 07-02-2012, 20:23   #17
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Re: Taxes for buying second hand, VAT not paid, boat in Martinique

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Again forget the sirens that indicate there's a legal way around it. The only way around it is not to enter the EU.

Dave
No, EU residents can't have their boat in the EU without paying VAT. Simple as that. But they can indirectly (via a company) own a boat that is registered outside the EU and visit the EU with it for 18 months just like other non-EU flagged boats.

I have not been an EU resident for a decade, yet have a valid Dutch passport. There's thousands (much more I think) of people with EU passports who are not EU residents. When I visit Holland and buy some stuff, I get any paid VAT back from customs at the airport, just like other non-EU residents. Yes, I did that and it works and is legal and is official.

Most boats that cost more than a couple hundred thousand are owned by corporations. 90% of those, you can not even find out the company shareholders (closed shareholder registry). These boats enter the EU, USA and every other country in the world without problem, completely legal and official. A sailboat from the BVI or Caymans can enter the EU without paying VAT just like any US flagged sailboat can. You get your 18 months and after that have to leave.

All the talk about lawyers and difficult etc. is big BS. It's a call and 24h later FedEx hands you the papers incl. all from the company, boat registration, VHF callsigns, MMSI numbers etc. etc. It won't cost you 30 minutes of your time, just $5k or so.

ciao!
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Old 07-02-2012, 20:32   #18
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pirate Re: Taxes for buying second hand, VAT not paid, boat in Martinique

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
No, EU residents can't have their boat in the EU without paying VAT. Simple as that. But they can indirectly (via a company) own a boat that is registered outside the EU and visit the EU with it for 18 months just like other non-EU flagged boats.

I have not been an EU resident for a decade, yet have a valid Dutch passport. There's thousands (much more I think) of people with EU passports who are not EU residents. When I visit Holland and buy some stuff, I get any paid VAT back from customs at the airport, just like other non-EU residents. Yes, I did that and it works and is legal and is official.

Most boats that cost more than a couple hundred thousand are owned by corporations. 90% of those, you can not even find out the company shareholders (closed shareholder registry). These boats enter the EU, USA and every other country in the world without problem, completely legal and official. A sailboat from the BVI or Caymans can enter the EU without paying VAT just like any US flagged sailboat can. You get your 18 months and after that have to leave.

All the talk about lawyers and difficult etc. is big BS. It's a call and 24h later FedEx hands you the papers incl. all from the company, boat registration, VHF callsigns, MMSI numbers etc. etc. It won't cost you 30 minutes of your time, just $5k or so.

ciao!
Nick.
And when one considers somewhere like Portugal has gone up to 23%VAT..... that $5K don't look all that bad...
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Old 08-02-2012, 00:56   #19
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Do boat rental companies have qualifying boats in the same way as car rental companies have qualifying cars?
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:12   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, EU residents can't have their boat in the EU without paying VAT. Simple as that. But they can indirectly (via a company) own a boat that is registered outside the EU and visit the EU with it for 18 months just like other non-EU flagged boats.

I have not been an EU resident for a decade, yet have a valid Dutch passport. There's thousands (much more I think) of people with EU passports who are not EU residents. When I visit Holland and buy some stuff, I get any paid VAT back from customs at the airport, just like other non-EU residents. Yes, I did that and it works and is legal and is official.

Most boats that cost more than a couple hundred thousand are owned by corporations. 90% of those, you can not even find out the company shareholders (closed shareholder registry). These boats enter the EU, USA and every other country in the world without problem, completely legal and official. A sailboat from the BVI or Caymans can enter the EU without paying VAT just like any US flagged sailboat can. You get your 18 months and after that have to leave.

All the talk about lawyers and difficult etc. is big BS. It's a call and 24h later FedEx hands you the papers incl. all from the company, boat registration, VHF callsigns, MMSI numbers etc. etc. It won't cost you 30 minutes of your time, just $5k or so.

ciao!
Nick.
The fact that people do doesn't make it legal. It is illegal once you are a EU tax resident to use a boat for private use without paying VAT. Stop talking about non residents that's completely different.

You cannot live in the EU and wrap a boat in a corporate cover and avoid vat. the rules and strictures means instead of breaking customs law you break corporate law ( and probably customs law as well ). The law is clear and people are vigorously prosecuted for contraventions. The EU is funded by deductions from the VAT receipts of member states. It polices VAT very diligently.

The law is clear is uses the term ' beneficial owner" for that specific reason. You cannot hide it in corporate red tape. If a customs official " forms an opinion" that you are engaging in customs fraud them that's enough for them to seize the asset. They don't need proof.

What you will find is that there are a number of foreign flagged boats In the EU. Once their owners are not tax residents that's fine.

Dave

Everything else is just tax evasion.
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:23   #21
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Re: Taxes for buying second hand, VAT not paid, boat in Martinique

Make the word PRIVATE in capitals and bold type. If you use a boat for business (rental) you may reclaim VAT, which must be paid up when there is a transfer from business to private use.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:16   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The fact that people do doesn't make it legal. It is illegal once you are a EU tax resident to use a boat for private use without paying VAT. Stop talking about non residents that's completely different.

You cannot live in the EU and wrap a boat in a corporate cover and avoid vat. the rules and strictures means instead of breaking customs law you break corporate law ( and probably customs law as well ). The law is clear and people are vigorously prosecuted for contraventions. The EU is funded by deductions from the VAT receipts of member states. It polices VAT very diligently.

The law is clear is uses the term ' beneficial owner" for that specific reason. You cannot hide it in corporate red tape. If a customs official " forms an opinion" that you are engaging in customs fraud them that's enough for them to seize the asset. They don't need proof.

What you will find is that there are a number of foreign flagged boats In the EU. Once their owners are not tax residents that's fine.

Dave

Everything else is just tax evasion.
Yes, I know that tax evasion is a dirty word for so many these days, but that does not make it illegal; only illegal methods of tax evasion are illegal and your personal feelings are not relevant for that. But I am not going to do any 99% vs 1% discussions with you or anyone else.. Brrrrrrrrr...

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:26   #23
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Yes, I know that tax evasion is a dirty word for so many these days, but that does not make it illegal; only illegal methods of tax evasion are illegal and your personal feelings are not relevant for that. But I am not going to do any 99% vs 1% discussions with you or anyone else.. Brrrrrrrrr...

cheers,
Nick.
Are you trying to make the distinction about Avoidance v Evasion? As all evasion is illegal and always has been.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:32   #24
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pirate Re: Taxes for Buying Second Hand , VAT Not Paid , Boat in Martinique

I prefer the term 'Strategic Manouvering'....
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:34   #25
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I prefer the term 'Strategic Manouvering'....
The beauty of living in the Channel Islands.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:50   #26
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Re: Taxes for Buying Second Hand , VAT Not Paid , Boat in Martinique

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The beauty of living in the Channel Islands.
The B#stards introduced a sales tax (5%) over here a couple of years back - unfortunately we were not allowed into the EU Vat area at that rate (actually I don't think we even bothered to ask ).

The quid pro quo was that Company tax dropped down to 0% . Albeit personal taxes still 20% (flat rate).....the same as it was set pre-war (4 shillings in the pound). But to pay that much need to be earning around £25k ($35k) plus...Min wage is around £300 a week (£15k / USD20k) pa.

Social Security costs have also gone up in recent years - but Healthcare still free (much the same as NHS style) and over the last 50 years we have actually been paying the money for State Pensions into a fund - rather than spending it every year . Civil Servant pensions also have own funds (with the money needed actually in them).

and Zero public / state debt

Times are also tight over here - lets hope they don't start introducing communist ideas like Capital Gains or Inheritance taxes. Certainly not the last fuggin one .
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:57   #27
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Re: Taxes for Buying Second Hand , VAT Not Paid , Boat in Martinique

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Are you trying to make the distinction about Avoidance v Evasion? As all evasion is illegal and always has been.
Sure if you state that I mean avoidance. I don't play word games very well, especially not in English which is my 2nd language.

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I prefer the term 'Strategic Manouvering'....
That would be a better term indeed Every corporation with black numbers in the books does this and every government welcomes them in with special exemptions and deals.

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The beauty of living in the Channel Islands.
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Times are also tight over here - lets hope they don't start introducing communist ideas like Capital Gains or Inheritance taxes. Certainly not the last fuggin one .
Oh no, not those words, it hurts!!
Capital Gains tax are so bad that they re-worded it in Holland and now violently state that there is no capital gains tax anymore. Anyway, there is something else that is exactly the same except it cost more than before so I was forced to stop working completely and emigrate... life can be tough I guess 99% doesn't want to leave and nicely pay the tax or they would have gotten rid of it by now. Good for them, everybody happy

ciao!
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:50   #28
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Re: Taxes for Buying Second Hand , VAT Not Paid , Boat in Martinique

I prefer the term Tax Mitigation

Although places like here are roundly condemed as the home of tax fiddling b#stards feeding off the onshore world by hiding ill gotten gains - in reality (nowadays ) the truth be very much different........it's more about acting as a rubber gasket between various Countries / individuals (and there individual tax regimes) that allow more flexibility of the "fit" between each - and without which transactions either could not or would not be undertaken simply because the Tax Regimes involved don't align with each other - can often contradict and therefore complying with one side means not being able to comply in another - and that even without the cost of a transaction (in taxes) exceeding the value of a transaction by being taxed from both sides. hard enough when 2 countries involved, even harder with more.

Because places like this are neutral it allows each side to solely concentrate on own end of a deal.

In practice the onshore world could close places like Jersey down pretty much overnight - but they realise that doing so would be shooting themselves in the foot economically (but that not exactly a politically popular thing to say!, far easier to bash those who can't bash back). BTW Jersey was set up as an offshore Tax haven etc by the English Govt - not by the locals.

Of course not to say that places like Gibralter, IOM and Guernsey are not simply full of tax stealing scum .
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:23   #29
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I prefer the term Tax Mitigation



In practice the onshore world could close places like Jersey down pretty much overnight - but they realise that doing so would be shooting themselves in the foot economically (but that not exactly a politically popular thing to say!, far easier to bash those who can't bash back). BTW Jersey was set up as an offshore Tax haven etc by the English Govt - not by the locals.

Of course not to say that places like Gibralter, IOM and Guernsey are not simply full of tax stealing scum .
Agreed, but they won't do as places like Switzerland are keen to take over. Just like they are doing with VAT fulfilment.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:18   #30
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Re: Taxes for Buying Second Hand , VAT Not Paid , Boat in Martinique

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Agreed, but they won't do as places like Switzerland are keen to take over. Just like they are doing with VAT fulfilment.
Yep, that's called freedom and free enterprise at government levels. In the old days there would be threats of war to make others see things the way you would like it. Lately, I have the feeling that this is where we are heading again but only time will tell...

ciao!
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