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Old 19-09-2008, 17:12   #1
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suggestions on comments regarding boats

All of us have different boats, like children, with warts and quirks and issues, but I think it's important to perhaps suggest a few guidelines regarding comments on boats, not as a moderator, but simply as one who wishes to keep the tone civil and the conversations educational.

1) Most of new boat buyers are looking for advise on what to buy, not what to avoid. Therefore we should try to restrict our comments to boats that meet a certain criteria rather than bash any one particular boat ruthlessly.

2) We should specify how to do something based on experience, rather than simply trying to specify how something could not be done. Things are always impossible until someone manages to achieve them. I've seen in the past few days friends who were designers of the Americas Cup be told by people who don't even have a boat that they didn't know what they were talking about. Never say something can't be done.

3) We should realize that there are different boats for different purposes, just because we may not like a slow catamaran doesn't mean a slow catamaran isn't a wonderful, safe circumnavigator.

4) We should finally realize that there are huge descrepencies even in the same make and model of boat. Some extremely well made boats have had models which were in isolated instances deeply flawed in their construction. Part of a every boat builders life is experiencing flaws and then fixing them.

5) If we do know something for a fact that's negative, simply state it and leave the value judgements aside. A norseman has 10" of clearance underneath. Yet each one still has crossed the atlantic on its own hull.

6) A boats performance is often more determined by the sailor than by the boat. Friends of mine on a prout snowgoose 37 outsailed a catana 44, not because the catana was a slower boat, but they were better sailors. It's also often imprudent to even attempt to go quickly in heavy wind.

Just my two cents...
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Old 19-09-2008, 20:18   #2
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Great advice and I also enjoyed your photo blog....fair winds!
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Old 19-09-2008, 20:39   #3
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I totally agree and well said. We are currently in the market to purchase our first boat. I've thoroughly enjoyed being on this forum accumulating knowledge from the knowledge base that this forum provides. It's been invaluable and very appreciated by myself. I always like to hear the real world experiences instead of what an article or book may state.
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Old 19-09-2008, 20:56   #4
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Yes Schoonerdog, horses for courses. Even when you spend years designing and building your perfect boat, a day on board will show bring up dozens of things that you want to change on the next one! Athough, on every such occasion the next boat has always been a cat!
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Old 19-09-2008, 23:18   #5
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Thanks for the thoughtful advice...it's an excellent expression of the "filter" I try to apply while reading certain postings on this forum. I read and learn a lot, for which I am grateful, but some of the biased comments are pretty distracting. As a prospective boat buyer, I really appreciate the factual, objective postings made in a manner consistent with your advice.
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Old 19-09-2008, 23:25   #6
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The rich dialog that makes up this forum is full of diversity of perspective and experience. Opinions are opinions and there is little that can be claimed as "fact"

All we ask and strive to provide the members is a safe environment to ask the "dumb" questions without getting slammed as a "noob." To provide a civil environment where those with polar opposite views can debate with no personal attacks (allowing that sometimes it is OK to agree to disagree) and to provide an environment free from harrassment.

The veracity and truthfulness of any individual members posts is determined by you the reader.
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Old 20-09-2008, 06:51   #7
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Well I really cannot tolerate the misuse of the forum that you propagate.

I might as well go down in flames.

The simple fact is that a number of untruthful and misleading claims were made by a commercial vendor and they were repeated and the poster asked to justify them - you acted to not only stop the thread but also to make your own biased personal comments after the thread was closed - even criticising the poor customer who today is suffering 5 months after he went out to collect his boat.

So no - were were dealing with untruthful claims of fact that the poster was asked to justify and your actions protected the untruthful comments and allowed the poster of those untruthful claims to get away with it ... again.

Those comments you made after closing the thread also included off subject matters that were raised by others and not responded to as thread drift. yet everyone was denied a response - a total abuse of your moderator powers.

So its not a matter of opinion - its a matter of the truth and basic principles.

I simply could not help posting my objections to your incredibly misleading comments. So go ahead ban me - I have come to expect that sort of behavior as its seems you cannot tolerate reasoned debate.
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Old 20-09-2008, 08:13   #8
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Quote:
I think it has become clear to me that I do not share the same values or principles as those moderating this forum so I think it best all round if I leave the forum - this is my very last post and I shall not discuss the issues here as that would be against forum rules.
WELL.....?
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Old 22-09-2008, 10:37   #9
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Did alot of posts get deleated between 6 and 7. i am now lost where are my charts.
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Old 22-09-2008, 17:18   #10
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A Tale of Two Hulls

I've been away for a few days and have missed the events leading up to this. I suspect this brouhaha stemmed from Vendor "X" making some extravagant claims regarding the helium-like properties of his product and of the superiority of every single element its construction - and thus by implication the clear inferiority of every other competing product.

Fair enough! - That's what sales people are supposed to do, never letting truth get in the way of a good story is a well worn sales and marketing technique. I think we're all old enough to see through such childlike and simplistic assertions.

And then along come a brace of Technocrats for whom these blurred lines between fact and fiction are a source of much aggravation. These White Knights are intent on vigilante justice. The boys get lucky - they discover a Blog by Hapless Buyers "B & B" detailing their wrist slashingly depressing experience during the commissioning of Vendor X's 4th off the line product.

Much on-line jousting occurs and the, by now, not-so-Helium-like qualities of Vendor X's pride and joy are being exposed as are the previously made extravagant claims taken to task

Meanwhile back at the castle, flushed with success, our gleeful vigilantes, believing that they are safe under the "mantle of truth", are naively unaware that Vendor X is well connected. Emails are sent, phone calls are made and our trusty White Knights find their steeds hobbled and their lances melted down by the Grand Wizards.

And that boys and girls is where we are at for now.


To be continued........

(any resemblance of the above between anyone living or not is purely co-incidental ).
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Old 22-09-2008, 19:52   #11
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umm yes
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Old 23-09-2008, 11:10   #12
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pirate

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Originally Posted by neelie View Post
naively unaware that Vendor X is well connected

The horse's head is no doubt in the mail as we speak
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Old 23-09-2008, 14:06   #13
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Lighten Up Gludy

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Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
blah, blah, blah.
Gludy

Whatever the merits of the points you were trying to make, they were lost in the manner in which you chose to make them. I don't think many boat-builders, like Gideon, would contribute so frankly on a forum such as this and I, for one, value his contributions and, while they might not be entirely altruistic, I've always found well-informed, interesting and well-expressed. This is a public forum, not a court of law, so lighten up (if you'll pardon the pun) and share your thoughts with humour and humility.

Chris
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Old 23-09-2008, 15:12   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neelie View Post
I've been away for a few days and have missed the events leading up to this. I suspect this brouhaha stemmed from Vendor "X" making some extravagant claims regarding the helium-like properties of his product and of the superiority of every single element its construction - and thus by implication the clear inferiority of every other competing product.

Fair enough! - That's what sales people are supposed to do, never letting truth get in the way of a good story is a well worn sales and marketing technique. I think we're all old enough to see through such childlike and simplistic assertions.

And then along come a brace of Technocrats for whom these blurred lines between fact and fiction are a source of much aggravation. These White Knights are intent on vigilante justice. The boys get lucky - they discover a Blog by Hapless Buyers "B & B" detailing their wrist slashingly depressing experience during the commissioning of Vendor X's 4th off the line product.

Much on-line jousting occurs and the, by now, not-so-Helium-like qualities of Vendor X's pride and joy are being exposed as are the previously made extravagant claims taken to task

Meanwhile back at the castle, flushed with success, our gleeful vigilantes, believing that they are safe under the "mantle of truth", are naively unaware that Vendor X is well connected. Emails are sent, phone calls are made and our trusty White Knights find their steeds hobbled and their lances melted down by the Grand Wizards.

And that boys and girls is where we are at for now.


To be continued........

(any resemblance of the above between anyone living or not is purely co-incidental ).
I am sure I dont know what you are talking about!!!!!!
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Old 23-09-2008, 15:19   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
Gludy Whatever the merits of the points you were trying to make, they were lost in the manner in which you chose to make them. This is a public forum, not a court of law, so lighten up (if you'll pardon the pun) and share your thoughts with humour and humility.
Chris
If you had any knowledge of the problems Gludy has had with two bad boat builders over the last 2-3 years, you would understand where he is coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
I don't think many boat-builders, like Gideon, would contribute so frankly on a forum such as this and I, for one, value his contributions and, while they might not be entirely altruistic, I've always found well-informed, interesting and well-expressed.
Chris
I am sorry, but I find his continued pushing of his product way above what ought to be acceptable here. I have no problem with any member using his knowledge to inform, but when 90% of the posts are thinly veiled advertising I get peeved.
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