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Old 09-10-2015, 20:58   #16
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

For an inexperienced person I would say a mono. The mono will sail reasonable well no matter how the sails are trimmed, the only difference being in the amount of heel and pointing ability which is something you will learn to control as you learn better sail control. Multihulls, particularly catamarans are more a go - no go proposition where correct sail trim makes a huge difference to performance and probably why you see so many motor-sailing instead of just sailing, sure you could go straight into a multi but it will (probably) take you a lot longer to learn to sail correctly and when purchasing one you really need to know what you are looking at as there are too many out there that won't sail well no matter how skilled you are. Also as mentioned by others a mono will cost you a lot less both to buy and maintain. It is of course a personal thing (I could never go back to a Mono but I have been sailing for over 55 years, 28 of them in Multis) so this is just my opinion.
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Old 10-10-2015, 00:47   #17
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by Kinta Ray View Post
It is of course a personal thing (I could never go back to a Mono but I have been sailing for over 55 years, 28 of them in Multis) so this is just my opinion.
Geez if markpierce is right, you must look terrible
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:13   #18
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Long-time sailboaters look old for their age. Assuming you don't smoke or sun bathe, don't do it for more than 15 years.
Seriously?
I never know whether you are serious or not.
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:14   #19
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Re: starting with mono or multi-hull?

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Boat on a trampoline! Trust you're not over 30-something years old.
Started at 37 finished at around 51years old.....
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:21   #20
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Long-time sailboaters look old for their age. Assuming you don't smoke or sun bathe, don't do it for more than 15 years.
Very true especially for those of us that used to smoke and never gave up drinking.

It's the same for cyclists and triathletes (both male and female) or anyone else that has spent lots of time in the sun. Then the question isn't multi or mono, it's titanium or carbon fiber. I chose titanium.

If you ride in a Century Cycling event (100 miles) and you are in very good cycling shape, it takes 5 hours. Avg 20 mph but it can take several years to get to that point which means lots of time in the sun pushing your body hard. (and) If you do this after sailing for about 15 years, you may start to show your age a bit especially if you do this in Florida. Might be time to move (or be transferred) North.

It's even more evident for triathletes due to time in the sun and being a bit dehydrated at times while pushing your body hard

If you have already done it for 15 years, why worry about it? If anything, it's time to slow down a bit. Get an old monohull .......! (with dodger and bimini)
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:21   #21
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by Kinta Ray View Post
For an inexperienced person I would say a mono. The mono will sail reasonable well no matter how the sails are trimmed, the only difference being in the amount of heel and pointing ability which is something you will learn to control as you learn better sail control. Multihulls, particularly catamarans are more a go - no go proposition where correct sail trim makes a huge difference to performance and probably why you see so many motor-sailing instead of just sailing, sure you could go straight into a multi but it will (probably) take you a lot longer to learn to sail correctly and when purchasing one you really need to know what you are looking at as there are too many out there that won't sail well no matter how skilled you are. Also as mentioned by others a mono will cost you a lot less both to buy and maintain. It is of course a personal thing (I could never go back to a Mono but I have been sailing for over 55 years, 28 of them in Multis) so this is just my opinion.
Probably 90-95% of monohull sailboats that I see actually traveling are motoring. Similar for multihulls.

It's really not hard to make a multihull sail as you seem to imply.
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Old 10-10-2015, 04:29   #22
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

Your really need to define why you are buying the boat to get any kind of useful answer.

If the idea of bracing yourself on the deck at a 30deg heel with the rail in the water appeals to you get a stripped out racing monohull. And if it's just for weekend racing, that can be a lot of fun.

If your goal is cruising, a stripped out racing machine is going to get old real quick.

If you are budget limited, yes there are more monohulls available but that is changing. At the $75k price point there are lots of good cruising multihulls available. Of course if you want bluewater boat (and I use that term very loosely as there is no such thing) less than 5yrs old in turnkey condition, $75k is going to be tough to find multi or mono.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:19   #23
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Probably 90-95% of monohull sailboats that I see actually traveling are motoring. Similar for multihulls.

It's really not hard to make a multihull sail as you seem to imply.
Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. It's quite easy to make a multihull move with speed since there is so much less wetted surface and a lot more sail area.


The statements below from: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/022599d.htm


One of the major advantages of the multihull over monohull is its speed. This quickness comes from their power-to-weight ratio. They have a lot of sail power and little weight. Also, because of the breadth that lends to stability they will normally have much less wetted surface than a monohull. A clever twist of history is pointed out in "Cruising Multihull Fundamentals" by Rick White (old Beach Cat Sailor). He poses the question:
"What if America had been discovered by the Polynesians, rather than Scandinavians? Well, we'd all be sailing multihulls. Then Someone would come along and say, "Hey, I have a great idea. I'm going to design a boat with just one hull."
Everyone would ask how it would keep upright and Mr. monohull would reply, "weights and a deep keel. I'll put a lot of weight down deep in the water."
Then everyone would ask if that wouldn't make the boat go very slow, and he would enthusiastically reply, "Yes!, Yes!, YES!". You can bet slow and heavy would soon have advocates and a new novelty would be born."

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Old 10-10-2015, 09:14   #24
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

valhalla360 & thomm225
We must live on different planets because around here there are so many blocks of flats motoring around that I wonder why they even have a mast and yes this applies to Monos as well. You are right that a Cat is not hard to get moving but the reason that they have a bad reputation for windward work is because they are either such bad designs that they can't sail to windward or the skipper is such a poor or inexperienced sailor that he can't make his boat go to windward. This also applies to getting the most out of your boat on any point of sail and I have often sailed past a boat that was under motor, why anyone would motor-sail when it is faster to sail is beyond me so I can only assume that the skipper is lazy or doesn't know how to sail. It would be lovely if all Catamarans were as light and fast as you say Thomm225 but there is nothing light or fast about a Lagoon (early ones anyway, don't know about present models) or similar and there are lot of these types of Cat around which is why I suggested a mono as a good learners boat. There are already too many people that have got into sailing on overweight slow and underperforming catamarans and I believe that the majority never learn to sail properly because their boats can't so they just give up and turn on their motors.
What I was trying to get across was that it is easier to get a mono to sail at its potential than it is a catamaran when you are inexperienced, I was not saying that a catamaran was slower, I was saying that it takes more effort to get maximum performance from the Cat as it is more sensitive to trim than a mono. I hope I have explained what I mean.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:33   #25
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinta Ray View Post
valhalla360 & thomm225
We must live on different planets because around here there are so many blocks of flats motoring around that I wonder why they even have a mast and yes this applies to Monos as well. You are right that a Cat is not hard to get moving but the reason that they have a bad reputation for windward work is because they are either such bad designs that they can't sail to windward or the skipper is such a poor or inexperienced sailor that he can't make his boat go to windward. This also applies to getting the most out of your boat on any point of sail and I have often sailed past a boat that was under motor, why anyone would motor-sail when it is faster to sail is beyond me so I can only assume that the skipper is lazy or doesn't know how to sail. It would be lovely if all Catamarans were as light and fast as you say Thomm225 but there is nothing light or fast about a Lagoon (early ones anyway, don't know about present models) or similar and there are lot of these types of Cat around which is why I suggested a mono as a good learners boat. There are already too many people that have got into sailing on overweight slow and underperforming catamarans and I believe that the majority never learn to sail properly because their boats can't so they just give up and turn on their motors.
What I was trying to get across was that it is easier to get a mono to sail at its potential than it is a catamaran when you are inexperienced, I was not saying that a catamaran was slower, I was saying that it takes more effort to get maximum performance from the Cat as it is more sensitive to trim than a mono. I hope I have explained what I mean.
Sure, I see your point about getting max performance, but I still think Mr Catamaran sailor guy can get his big catamaran moving at a decent speed easier than Mr Monohull sailor can

But .....

that could be because I learned on catamarans and my last one was a unirig that we sailed the windward leg with the main only then popped the chute on the downwind leg. It was about the time all races went strictly to windward/leeward marks and threw out the reaching leg. (btw, things would get quite interesting at the downwind mark with all those spinnaker flying singlehanded cats coming down on it at the same time.......... then trying to drop the spinnaker and make the turn back upwind)

Try sailing My Bristol to windward in light winds and waves with the main only as a beginner.

The only real complaint I ever heard from beginner cat sailors was tacking but they soon learned enough to backwind the jib. (which you would never do racing because it's too slow) It works well for the beginner cruiser guy though because there's no hurry


I'm not sure why this dude has his boards up unless he is in shallow water:

https://www.google.com/search?q=nacr...DnzbBbtE4_M%3A

https://www.google.com/search?q=nacr...Qa0KiFX-jfM%3A

http://www.sailboat-data.com/en/sail...nacra-inter-17
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:18   #26
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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Originally Posted by Kinta Ray View Post
valhalla360 & thomm225
We must live on different planets because around here there are so many blocks of flats motoring around that I wonder why they even have a mast and yes this applies to Monos as well. You are right that a Cat is not hard to get moving but the reason that they have a bad reputation for windward work is because they are either such bad designs that they can't sail to windward or the skipper is such a poor or inexperienced sailor that he can't make his boat go to windward. This also applies to getting the most out of your boat on any point of sail and I have often sailed past a boat that was under motor, why anyone would motor-sail when it is faster to sail is beyond me so I can only assume that the skipper is lazy or doesn't know how to sail. It would be lovely if all Catamarans were as light and fast as you say Thomm225 but there is nothing light or fast about a Lagoon (early ones anyway, don't know about present models) or similar and there are lot of these types of Cat around which is why I suggested a mono as a good learners boat. There are already too many people that have got into sailing on overweight slow and underperforming catamarans and I believe that the majority never learn to sail properly because their boats can't so they just give up and turn on their motors.
What I was trying to get across was that it is easier to get a mono to sail at its potential than it is a catamaran when you are inexperienced, I was not saying that a catamaran was slower, I was saying that it takes more effort to get maximum performance from the Cat as it is more sensitive to trim than a mono. I hope I have explained what I mean.
I see no significant difference on the water between either type when it comes to sailing vs motoring. Most cruising oriented (and this is a cruisers forum) are more interested in relaxing than squeezing the last 0.1kt out of the boat.

The real question (in my second post on this thread) is what is the OP's goal in buying a boat.

If his goal is sailboat racing, his needs will be different than if he is cruising.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:48   #27
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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I have a little experience with sailing, and I have decided to purchase a boat. choosing between a used monohull and a used catamaran, has been a problem. I wonder if there is a more difficult learning curve with one or the other.
advice , please
Either one will work but a smaller boat at first seems to work best because it reacts to everything you do whereas a large, heavy boat may take 30-45 seconds to react after you make an adjustment.

Some folks though only want the minimum of sailing skills while others want to know everything they can about it.

Some cruiser guys tend to look more at the big picture which includes anchoring, navigation, engines, electronics, and spend less time on sailing abilities etc while racer guys look totally at how well they can make their boat perform under sail. Some small boat racer guys never use anchors or engines until they move to a larger boat

Many racers though become cruisers and some cruises race. It's your choice
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:08   #28
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

thomm225
"Try sailing My Bristol to windward in light winds and waves with the main only as a beginner."
This is exactly why I believe it is more important for a catamaran skipper to know how to sail properly, it is not nice to find yourself on a lee shore in strong winds with no motor if you don't know how to sail well. A mono is much more forgiving of limited experience when sailing to windward.

"Many racers though become cruisers and some cruises race. It's your choice"
Your comment about a racer turning to cruising fits me to a tee and is probably why I put more emphasis on sailing performance than a lot of other cruisers, the previous owners of my cat told me that they had never sailed hard on the wind and had never been out in more than 25 knots of wind, even though most boats of this design were built for racing. They had owned the boat for almost 10 years.

"Some folks though only want the minimum of sailing skills while others want to know everything they can about it."
This is very true but I believe it is a bad mistake not to know everything you can about your boat and its performance in as many conditions as possible. People who will only go out when it is blowing 15 knots or less are in for a big shock if they get caught out in a 40 knot blow let alone anything stronger. I am not saying that they should go out in 35+ but unless they have been out in at least 25 knots I do not believe that they know what to expect in stronger winds and that is dangerous.

Anyway it sounds like we both agree that everyone should sail and only motor as a last resort.
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Old 11-10-2015, 05:46   #29
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

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thomm225
"Try sailing My Bristol to windward in light winds and waves with the main only as a beginner."
This is exactly why I believe it is more important for a catamaran skipper to know how to sail properly, it is not nice to find yourself on a lee shore in strong winds with no motor if you don't know how to sail well. A mono is much more forgiving of limited experience when sailing to windward.

"Many racers though become cruisers and some cruises race. It's your choice"
Your comment about a racer turning to cruising fits me to a tee and is probably why I put more emphasis on sailing performance than a lot of other cruisers, the previous owners of my cat told me that they had never sailed hard on the wind and had never been out in more than 25 knots of wind, even though most boats of this design were built for racing. They had owned the boat for almost 10 years.

"Some folks though only want the minimum of sailing skills while others want to know everything they can about it."
This is very true but I believe it is a bad mistake not to know everything you can about your boat and its performance in as many conditions as possible. People who will only go out when it is blowing 15 knots or less are in for a big shock if they get caught out in a 40 knot blow let alone anything stronger. I am not saying that they should go out in 35+ but unless they have been out in at least 25 knots I do not believe that they know what to expect in stronger winds and that is dangerous.

Anyway it sounds like we both agree that everyone should sail and only motor as a last resort.
I agree with most of what you are saying except the first paragraph, and maybe that's because I now have an old full keel Bristol with a 19.75' waterline and 4' draft. If I had a fin keel monohull with a 27' plus water line and 6' draft, I may agree with that statement

I have been pinned on a lee shore several times already. It's a place I like to anchor having been there many times as a 5-6 year old when my Dad worked on the ferries that crossed the lower Chesapeake bay

I anchor there then fish or hike and sleep over night. The wind though several times has piped up to the 30's then you get these 3' plus waves coming in and you pray your anchor holds so you don't get driven ashore.

Even after the wind comes down a bit to say 25 knots and you try and sail out, this old Bristol may point somewhere like 75 degrees maybe off the wind. Usually it's more like 90 degrees plus when you get into the 5'-6' waves beyond the breakwater of cement ships

I just think if I had a 38' catamaran (with maybe 5' + daggerboards) I could point a lot closer to the wind than that and simply sail off a leeshore.........

I'm used to catamarans that point damn near less than 30 degrees but those catamarans (racing beach cats) wouldn't do much at all in closely space 5'-6' bay/ocean waves that you find near Kiptopeke during a strong southerly wind. They used to race them though in the Atlantic Ocean from FL to Va back in the day (even Hobie 16's) but they didn't usually have to point into the wind and waves
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:46   #30
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Re: Starting With Mono or Multi-hull?

thomm225
"I agree with most of what you are saying except the first paragraph, and maybe that's because I now have an old full keel Bristol with a 19.75' waterline and 4' draft. If I had a fin keel monohull with a 27' plus water line and 6' draft, I may agree with that statement, this old Bristol may point somewhere like 75 degrees maybe off the wind. Usually it's more like 90 degrees plus when you get into the 5'-6' waves"

LOL, sounds a bit like my first cruising catamaran back in 1977. 36 ft, Ply construction, wooden mast, galvanized rigging, fixed keels and a 15hp outboard that only worked 50% of the time but hell was it fun and it sure did teach me heaps about sailing. It used to point at about 60 degs but hey you get used to compromising don't you. First cruise was from Brisbane to Cairns and back approx 2000 nm with only dead reckoning navigation and a 27 Mhz radio all without any problems except for that damm outboard. I don't know your Bristol but I must admit when I was recommending a mono I was thinking of one of the more modern designs that do point well. I also have a feeling that you may be exaggerating your boats lack of performance just a little.
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