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Old 17-03-2015, 18:02   #46
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Good luck with that! Maybe also increase the mast height to reduce the draft...

I got the message loud and clear - don't try to help since you know it all. Please forgive me.

Dave
I'm confused. I was trying to be funny.

If I did something to upset you, I'm sorry.

I've read a lot of threads here over the years, but just started posting recently. I don't know many people here, and I don't know individual personalities, so maybe I should be a bit more formal until I do. All input is welcomed. If you want to talk about structural rigidity, I'm happy to. I'm always eager to learn something new.
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Old 17-03-2015, 18:13   #47
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

Just got this from a friend, who is designing the logo, font, and hull stripes.

Feeling chuffed.

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Old 17-03-2015, 18:17   #48
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by Hugh Howey View Post
I'm confused. I was trying to be funny.
No worries, Hugh. I got your joke. I was just trying to offer some objective engineering observations. Only you can decide what compromises you make on your boat.

Good luck with your build.

Quote:
Some prospective buyers were onboard when they hit 18 knots true speed in 20 knots of wind.
BTW, I was curious on any further clarification on this earlier claim.... Perhaps this report was from the same skipper that averaged over 200nm/day on the Atlantic crossing?

Dave
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Old 17-03-2015, 18:18   #49
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

This was a rougher sketch, based on a picture I took of an older St. Francis. It was to help visualize the yellow sail covers.

I might regret the color decisions on this boat, because I'm going pretty bold. Yellow cushions for the cockpit and helm seating. Yellow and white stripes for the cockpit enclosure. Light blue leather on the saloon settee.

Hopefully people won't be scared to row over for a visit...

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Old 18-03-2015, 00:19   #50
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
No worries, Hugh. I got your joke. I was just trying to offer some objective engineering observations. Only you can decide what compromises you make on your boat.

Good luck with your build.



BTW, I was curious on any further clarification on this earlier claim.... Perhaps this report was from the same skipper that averaged over 200nm/day on the Atlantic crossing?

Dave
I would have thought that if you need to worry about right angle corners on a settee accumulating stress loads, you've got bigger issues with the boats stiffness than the settee.
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Old 18-03-2015, 06:01   #51
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
I would have thought that if you need to worry about right angle corners on a settee accumulating stress loads, you've got bigger issues with the boats stiffness than the settee.

I agree with 2hulls. The radius corners of the settee may be a structural part of the rear beam.
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Old 18-03-2015, 06:52   #52
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
I would have thought that if you need to worry about right angle corners on a settee accumulating stress loads, you've got bigger issues with the boats stiffness than the settee.
Well, of course I don't know specifically whether the vessel's structural integrity is reliant on the settee. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe only a little, but I bet at least somewhat. And of course, the builder likely is smart enough to not make the junction a sharp right angle. It doesn't take much radius to relieve a stress riser. I expect the real reason why the large radius corner was present in the first place - like it is in many locations on so many production fiberglass boats - could be related to the molding process and getting the piece out of the mold. The whole cockpit floor and seating, etc. are probably done in one mold. A change like Hugh is requesting is not a simple matter for the builder. Hats off to them for indulging Hugh's desires.

Dave
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Old 18-03-2015, 09:42   #53
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/voyagesofsuliere"]

For those of you who would like to see a St. Francis 50 crossing the Atlantic and exploring the Bahamas, we have two videos by Paul Burgess sailing "Suliere":
Suliere: The Crossing
Suliere - Cruising the Exumas and Jumentos
You can watch the trailers, free extras, and rent or buy the full digital documentaries on Vimeo at https://vimeo.com/ondemand/voyagesofsuliere

Also available on our YouTube Channel...
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Old 18-03-2015, 16:40   #54
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by Hugh Howey View Post
They're both great boats. One is just larger, faster, less expensive, and will carry a larger tender in what feels like a safer manner. I've crawled through both, have sailed on a number of cats, and have my own ideas about the kind of cat I want.

I prefer saildrives. I prefer a galley up (if it has a wraparound counter and plenty of storage, which the St. Francis has in spades). I prefer hydraulic steering (proven tech that I'm comfortable repairing). And I really like being involved in the design and build process. Laying out the saloon is huge for me. I've never stepped into the perfect layout; so I'm getting to design it.

Even something as crazy as storage for two paddleboards, inside, not on the rails, is a big deal for me. That's my exercise. My favorite way of exploring. On a friend's boat, we had to strap the things to the rails, and that took time. Something to check before getting underway. And they got beat up pretty bad.

Other things I'm not sure every builder would've been able to accommodate:

A 24V system rather than a 12V system. This is huge for me. I've worked on a lot of boats over the years, and the robustness of a 24V system got me hooked. 24V winches, windlass, lights, instruments, etc. Really happy about this.

Lithium Ion batteries. 1,000W of solar. Choosing my own sailmaker. My own nav electronics. Laying out the nav station. Getting common rail Yanmars. Carrying a 13' RIB with a 40hp Yamaha.

All these are nice, but the biggest thing (literally) is that extra 6 feet added in the middle of the boat, which makes for an enormous difference in living space. To me, the St. Francis feels 10 feet longer.

Having said all that, I'd be happy on either boat. I'd be happy on a 27' monohull. I looked at a lot of cats, and spending a million bucks is a big deal to me, so I went with the boat that felt right. Not sure you can go wrong if you narrow it down to these proven designs and then go with the one that speaks to you.
Its definitely a case for whatever your preference.. I too think the Antares is overpriced (regardless of the kit that comes with it).. but I've heard too many complaints of saildrives to make them my 1st choice (shaft drive).. Galley up is a definite choice but the space cost can be too high on a sub 47ft cat.. hydraulic steering gets 2nd place to the Antares system (only cause its got less chance of letting you down).

The paddleboard storage idea is a new one on me but a nice and thoughtful addition.. I don't know about the 12v vs 24v system and its advantages on a boat (I can only relate it to 24v handtools are better than 12v or 18v).. maybe you can explain??

The interior space is a thing my wife insists upon... which is why I've also been looking at the Isara with its salon size (a great idea for other manufacturers in my opinion). I will be watching your project with interest.
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Old 18-03-2015, 17:09   #55
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
Its definitely a case for whatever your preference.. I too think the Antares is overpriced (regardless of the kit that comes with it).. but I've heard too many complaints of saildrives to make them my 1st choice (shaft drive).. Galley up is a definite choice but the space cost can be too high on a sub 47ft cat.. hydraulic steering gets 2nd place to the Antares system (only cause its got less chance of letting you down).

The paddleboard storage idea is a new one on me but a nice and thoughtful addition.. I don't know about the 12v vs 24v system and its advantages on a boat (I can only relate it to 24v handtools are better than 12v or 18v).. maybe you can explain??

The interior space is a thing my wife insists upon... which is why I've also been looking at the Isara with its salon size (a great idea for other manufacturers in my opinion). I will be watching your project with interest.
I think saloon size may be the only advantage of the Isara at present an unproven vessel. Yet to hear of anyone who has sailed on one -perhaps you have?
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Old 18-03-2015, 18:21   #56
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
Its definitely a case for whatever your preference.. I too think the Antares is overpriced (regardless of the kit that comes with it).. but I've heard too many complaints of saildrives to make them my 1st choice (shaft drive).. Galley up is a definite choice but the space cost can be too high on a sub 47ft cat.. hydraulic steering gets 2nd place to the Antares system (only cause its got less chance of letting you down).
I've seen some great galleys on cats lately, except for two areas: Cupboards and cooling. Never enough refrigeration or freezers for my needs. Then again, that can always be added in later. I lived on and ran a 74' power boat for a while, and the owner wanted to do this long cruise down to Barbados and back. We installed two drop-in cooler/freezers in a mechanical space without much fuss, and it worked great. Luckily, the St. Francis comes with a drop-in freezer as standard. And I chose two Isotherm drawer-style fridges, as I fell in love with those while working on sport fishes.

The lack of galley cupboards, I never understood on most cats. You have all this great space for them that goes unused, especially up high in the galleys. I always assumed I'd have to add some to whatever cat I bought.

I find hydraulics easy to work with and repair. I've lost steering on a large boat while on charter, and a piece of rubber hose, two clamps, and some oil got us running again. Having to weld or shape metal while underway would be a nightmare. Anything can break. The question is how likely is it to break, and can you fix it? I've had many more problems with mechanical steering (usually cable) than with hydraulic. That's anecdotal, of course. Just as I've had more troubles with shafts and none with sail drives. I imagine my experience with problems will change once I own something different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
The paddleboard storage idea is a new one on me but a nice and thoughtful addition.. I don't know about the 12v vs 24v system and its advantages on a boat (I can only relate it to 24v handtools are better than 12v or 18v).. maybe you can explain??
An important equation: P = I x V.

That's: Power = Current (times) Voltage

Power is measured in watts, current in amps, volts in volts.

An easy way to think of the three is to equate them to water. Current is the amount of water flowing through the pipes (here, the water is electrons). Voltage is the diameter of the pipes (how easily the electrons flow). And Power is the ability of that waterflow to do work (think of water spilling over a waterwheel. The more you have, the more power you get).

The next important thing to remember is that copper wire has resistance. The longer your copper run, the more voltage drop you get over that run. So if the battery bank is low down in the center of the boat, it has to push those electrons through a lot of copper to get to the anchor light, or to get to the anchor windlass. The bigger the boat, the longer the wire runs, and the more voltage drop you suffer. If you have too much voltage drop, you can damage your motors and electronics. The life of these systems will be shorter. And the efficiency of your batteries will be hurt, requiring more frequent charges (due to the voltage drops).

When you move to a 24V system, you draw half the amps to do the same amount of work (remember the equation: P = I x V. Twice the (V) means you get the same product with half the (I).

This is important for a number of reasons. The first is that less current needed means you can use smaller pipes. That means thinner gauge wire. It's a bonus that this is cheaper, weighs less, and is easier to run, but that's not the reason to go 24V. With longer wire runs on bigger boats, you prevent voltage drop-off over that length of copper. You have more oomph behind the current flow, while needing half the current. (I'd say 50' in boat length is a good cutoff for a 24V system, but with systems getting bigger and power needs growing, that might be 40' these days.)

Which leads to the next advantage: 24V systems are more robust. They do more work with less strain. They last longer. They tend to be more commercial and less consumer as well. Most of the boats I've worked on had 24V pumps, windlasses, winches, lighting, you name it. Most systems are available in 24V. They can cost more and be more difficult to source, but I think you save that money in the longevity.

The last reason is the robustness of the battery bank. You have more room to run the voltage down before you need to recharge, as you have twice the headroom. Half a volt dropped on a 12V system, and you're reaching for the generator switch. Half a volt dropped on a 24V system is a lesser percentage, and so you can keep on trucking. (I also happen to think DC watermakers are the way to go these days, and the 24V really help here.)

Are there disadvantages? Yes. Initial cost can be higher. The systems can be more complex (you will probably need a second bus running 12V, either from another battery bank or a DC -> DC converter for the engine start batteries, VHF, and a few other items). But these are very proven systems. I've been on far fewer pure 12V boats than boats that had 12V, 24V, and 110V/220V systems running all together. You use the voltage needed for that item and that power requirement.

I'd probably be looking at this, even if I were building a 45' cat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
The interior space is a thing my wife insists upon... which is why I've also been looking at the Isara with its salon size (a great idea for other manufacturers in my opinion). I will be watching your project with interest.
Thanks. Hopefully we cross paths, and you can come see the thing in person. Best of luck with whatever you decide!
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Old 18-03-2015, 18:37   #57
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSailingChannel.TV View Post
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/voyagesofsuliere"]

For those of you who would like to see a St. Francis 50 crossing the Atlantic and exploring the Bahamas, we have two videos by Paul Burgess sailing "Suliere":
Suliere: The Crossing
Suliere - Cruising the Exumas and Jumentos
You can watch the trailers, free extras, and rent or buy the full digital documentaries on Vimeo at https://vimeo.com/ondemand/voyagesofsuliere

Also available on our YouTube Channel...
The quality of these videos is amazing. Simply amazing.
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Old 18-03-2015, 18:44   #58
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

Suliere, a St. Francis 50, replaces AGM's with Lithium batteries.

See https://vimeo.com/sailflix/review/89155302/6dd4ba9baf
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Old 18-03-2015, 18:58   #59
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

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Originally Posted by TheSailingChannel.TV View Post
Suliere, a St. Francis 50, replaces AGM's with Lithium batteries.

See https://vimeo.com/sailflix/review/89155302/6dd4ba9baf
Very cool. What's been your experience with LI? Did the installer have any concerns with the ventilation beneath that settee?

Crazy how much weight you saved while gaining usable amp hours. Hopefully the price will keep coming down on these batteries until they become standard.
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Old 18-03-2015, 21:50   #60
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Re: St. Francis 50: "Wayfinder"

Hugh,

Paul, the owner of Sulaire and filmmaker had quite a few installation issues with the electrics on Suliere.

St Francis were certainly very accomodating of extras on his vessel but I would check the competence of the electrician in installation of systems that are not standard. Would be worthwhile conferring with Paul Burgess also on aspects to be careful with in your build.

cheers
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