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Old 21-03-2012, 04:28   #286
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

We are buying, of course due diligence and survey etc however what wev'e seen is very good.
The search has been three years. I'll keep my eye out for a Tobago, pm me your email address if u wish, Cheers
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Old 21-03-2012, 07:19   #287
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

If the picture shows the actual position of the hatches then the boat should have never gone offshore in the first place!

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Old 21-03-2012, 08:21   #288
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
If the picture shows the actual position of the hatches then the boat should have never gone offshore in the first place!

b.
This thread has been troubling me for awhile but I couldn't put my finger on why until Barnakiel posted as above.

In essence, he is (IMO) completely and totally correct except for one small proviso and that is "the boat should have never gone offshore in the first place unless the skipper (and crew) elected to accept the risk"

All this previous talk of who is liable for the "fault" and who should pay etc (designer / builder / etc) is just codswallop. Comparing a recreational boat design (and designer / builder etc) with say a car is ludicrous.

In a first world country, a car (bus, train, plane) is simply a part of the fabric of life and a complex machine that the average punter could never fully understand. The punter actually needs protection from possible design failures. A yacht on the other hand is simply an indulgence (well OK, a necessary indulgence for CF readers)!

The reason I sail (& sometimes cruise) is, in part, to escape the nanny state. I like living in a world where I take responsibility for myself. I get to decide what anchor, what chart, what rig, what sails and so on. If I get it wrong, I live (or die) with the consequences. No one makes me sail, the community doesn't need me to sail to survive, it remains my choice so I should take responsibility for my choice. If I don't feel I know enough to make an informed choice, I should educate myself or not go or take the risk. I shouldn't blame anyone else or hold anyone else accountable.

The OP elected to go to sea in this boat, with these hatches and in a cyclone season. It was his choice and he is entitled to make it. I would not have and perhaps Blind Freddy might not have but that isn't the point; he (she?) did and that is the end of it. It wasn't the designer's decision or anyone else's decision. No one forced him to and if he didn't know enough to make a better decision, so what; still no else's responsibility. Perhaps he did know "better" but accepted the risk anyway; that is his entitlement as an off-shore cruiser - IMO.

I could go on but I think you get my drift - YMMV.

Rant over, please resume normal programming!
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Old 21-03-2012, 10:26   #289
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

After reading through this thread two questions come to mind: What cat designs are generally considered the most seaworthy? Are more primitive cats and tris, like Wharrams and Searunners, more seaworthy than the modern style luxury boats?
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Old 21-03-2012, 10:38   #290
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by Arthurwg View Post
After reading through this thread two questions come to mind: What cat designs are generally considered the most seaworthy? Are more primitive cats and tris, like Wharrams and Searunners, more seaworthy than the modern style luxury boats?

Hi Arthur,

Your question is probably better placed in a new thread. You can also read former related threads and threats ;-) (use the search functionality above). It is a fiercely debated issue with many opinions and few clear-cut answers.

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Old 21-03-2012, 11:33   #291
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Re: Spirited 380 lost in the coral sea

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I guess the the damper-plates failed within 24 hours of each other.
I dont believe the drives are designed for continues operation.
Seals and oils were changed before the crossing from the solomons.
I find it hard to believe any saildrive or engine combo is designed not to be run constantly. That makes no sense at all. Has anyone ever been told that engine running time has to be limited to short non-continuous operation? If any product was advertised as so, I cant imagine any builder or consumer, buying it. I would bet that whoever told you that is very wrong.
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Old 21-03-2012, 14:39   #292
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

To clarify, the owner of this vessel in the photo, a sister ship of Minx, has the hatch open and is working in the engine. Closer inspection puts the engine very close to or below the water line. It doesn't quite look "right" when you see it.
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Old 21-03-2012, 18:57   #293
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

Looking at the photos published, I notice that beside the two hatches there appears to be air intakes. If that is the case, then for my two pence worth they are too low and too exposed to any sea. Any wave reaching the top step is contained there by the step coaming and enough force can be exerted by even the smallest amount of water to overcome any kind of internal lip. I hope that some one will correct me and tell me I'm wrong and its not the case they are intakes, for me a bigger design fault than the hatches so exposed.
Regards Joe
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Old 21-03-2012, 19:28   #294
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

Interesting that the power version of same vessel has this in the brochure

Quote:
The engine bays are located at the aft end of the aft cabins.
Port side access is through a door behind the shower.
Starboard access is under the aft double bunk.
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Old 21-03-2012, 19:51   #295
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
To clarify, the owner of this vessel in the photo, a sister ship of Minx, has the hatch open and is working in the engine. Closer inspection puts the engine very close to or below the water line. It doesn't quite look "right" when you see it.
Just a clarification on the 2 photos that you published - one is a sistership to Minx & the other one is a Lagoon 380 - correct?

In summary, the hatch design which shows the owner looks very bad but the one in the other photo which I believe is the Lagoon 380 is far more practical and I would expect that there would be a fair bit of working space and depth of hull around the engine to allow entry inside the engine room where you could close the hatch above you if conditions were extreme. Of course a hatch like this should have a latch that can be released from the inside as well.

In response to the comments from Wotname who said the folllowing:- "All this previous talk of who is liable for the "fault" and who should pay etc (designer / builder / etc) is just codswallop. Comparing a recreational boat design (and designer / builder etc) with say a car is ludicrous."

It is not codswallop at all and these comments are perfectly valid. There are perfectly justifiable consumer protection laws in place whch cover a situation like this where the goods you buy, in the case of Minx which was production built & NOT an owner built vessel, are fit for their intended purpose and are of acceptable quality. An engine room hatch that leaks severely & is not suitable for ocean usage obviously fails this test. The comparison with a car that was used was just an example of what a consumers expectations would be if their boot leaked & I'm sure that you would not accept this and a production built car and boat are good comparisons as they both require watertight seals. Boat plans should specify the engine hatch seals to be used by builders to ensure a watertight seal & if they don't then they are deficient.

Once an owner accepts delivery of a production built vessel then where they choose to sail it is obviously not the responsibility of the designer / builder but the structural integrity of the vessel & leaky engine hatch seals should be.
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Old 22-03-2012, 01:34   #296
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What we are talking about is a leaking boat design fault potentially.
I would have thought basic design and building should deal with stopping leaks?
A leaky boat ain't much good.
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Old 22-03-2012, 05:37   #297
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by dirkdig View Post
What we are talking about is a leaking boat design fault potentially.
I would have thought basic design and building should deal with stopping leaks?
A leaky boat ain't much good.
Exactly - spot on.......
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Old 22-03-2012, 10:25   #298
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Re: Spirited 380 lost in the coral sea

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Not sure if that was already answered, as I haven't read through the complete thread. What kind of engines and saildrives did you use? Reason why I'm asking is that i got dismasted last june when I sailed my cat from Europe to Canada so we had to motor for nine days before we finally reached Halifax in Nova Scotia. One gigantic tanker, at least for us gigantic, came for assistance when we still had 600 miles to go and helped us with 400 litres of diesel. I have two 29 hp yanmars with the sd20 saildrives. They were running without any problems.

Cheers,
Jochen
I am not sure but I believe they may well have been Lombadini motors and saildrives fitted.

Pricing at close to half Yanmar and sold and backed by Detroit diesel in Aus at the time meant they were worth a consideration.

Cheers
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Old 05-12-2012, 20:39   #299
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

the spirited 380 is now turned over and in the water just trying to get it back to Esperance
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Old 05-12-2012, 21:13   #300
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
To clarify, the owner of this vessel in the photo, a sister ship of Minx, has the hatch open and is working in the engine. Closer inspection puts the engine very close to or below the water line. It doesn't quite look "right" when you see it.
Pretty much any inboard engine installation will have it at least partially below the waterline. Not a problem as long as the water stays outside!

The real problem here was that the hatch design, with a step in the middle of it, meant it was very difficult for builders, (even professional builders) to get it to seal properly. Some owners modified their rear step so the engine hatch is all at the cockpit level, thus greatly reducing the potential for this problem. But in doing so they raised strong objections from the designer.

Interestingly enough, this mod, as well as some others these builders incorporated, (again against the designer's strongly expressed wishes) now seems to have been incorporated into the design.
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