Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

[spiritcat]

"Let me ask you this question. If you had bought a car which had cost you the same amount as your Spirited 380 and the car boot had leaked would you have expected the car dealer / manufacturer to fix the problem or would you have set about redesigning & replacing the boot? I think I know what your answer will be so why don't boat owners demand the same problem / design fault resolution from boat manufacturers? "

Good point Ozbullwinkle, but I did not buy a production boat, I built a boat designed by a suposedly reputable designer. Soon after buying the plans I learned of the concerns raised by owners of 380s that had been built to the designers specification and made a decision to change the design to suit my and others requirements.
These changes were offered to the designer, but he refused to accept there was a problem even though he ended up changing the hatch design on his own boat, although he still had leaking issues.

Peter

[Ozbullwinkle]

Originally Posted by Reefer.

I reckon my late model European hatchback would leak if I surfed my car at 10kts with a 2m following sea and a 15kt tailwind.

Horses for courses my friend. I bet you can take your late model European hatchback through a high pressure car wash and it doesn't leak & if it did you would hotfoot it back to the Dealer for them to fix it.

[Ozbullwinkle]

Originally Posted by spiritcat

"Let me ask you this question. If you had bought a car which had cost you the same amount as your Spirited 380 and the car boot had leaked would you have expected the car dealer / manufacturer to fix the problem or would you have set about redesigning & replacing the boot? I think I know what your answer will be so why don't boat owners demand the same problem / design fault resolution from boat manufacturers? "

Good point Ozbullwinkle, but I did not buy a production boat, I built a boat designed by a suposedly reputable designer. Soon after buying the plans I learned of the concerns raised by owners of 380s that had been built to the designers specification and made a decision to change the design to suit my and others requirements.
These changes were offered to the designer, but he refused to accept there was a problem even though he ended up changing the hatch design on his own boat, although he still had leaking issues.

Peter

Have you ever investigated what the consumer protection laws are where a designer is selling plans which contain a design fault? This fault then resulted in you being liable for more cost that you would have been if you could have built exactly following the plans. There are laws & damn rules for just about everything these days - surely the seller of the faulty design should be liable in some way.

[zumsel]

Originally Posted by minx

I guess the the damper-plates failed within 24 hours of each other.
I dont believe the drives are designed for continues operation.
Seals and oils were changed before the crossing from the solomons.

Not sure if that was already answered, as I haven't read through the complete thread. What kind of engines and saildrives did you use? Reason why I'm asking is that i got dismasted last june when I sailed my cat from Europe to Canada so we had to motor for nine days before we finally reached Halifax in Nova Scotia. One gigantic tanker, at least for us gigantic, came for assistance when we still had 600 miles to go and helped us with 400 litres of diesel. I have two 29 hp yanmars with the sd20 saildrives. They were running without any problems.

Cheers,
Jochen

[spiritcat]

Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle

Have you ever investigated what the consumer protection laws are where a designer is selling plans which contain a design fault? This fault then resulted in you being liable for more cost that you would have been if you could have built exactly following the plans. There are laws & damn rules for just about everything these days - surely the seller of the faulty design should be liable in some way.

Because I learned of the problems early, I was able to make the changes at no extra cost. One of the home builders I worked with however built to the original design and then cut the whole lot out and started again.

One area I do regret was that I purchased Nanni engines through the designer as they were the only ones that would fit in the original hatch design. With the improved design we adopted I could have fitted any engine and would have preferred Yanmars.
I have not had problems with the Nannis, in part due to keeping then dry, but I would have liked the opportubity to have a choice.

Peter

[egret]

The Fusion hatch is not rectangular in shape and has a curve on one side and this is where the problem starts as it gets twist. The only way to solve this is to have 2 or 3 latches but most people do want that and stick with one and that is why the seal does not get good contact. I might add that the Fusion Mackay system for the original hatch has almost solved the problem with only one latch but their new design will fix it alltogether.
Fusion Mackay will fix the problem.
I know alot about Fusion Mackay as they are just down the raod and I drop in and have a look how they are going. They don't advertise much and are up to their 10th boat in 3 years. Just work quietly away and push onwards.




[QUOTE=Ozbullwinkle;911971]

Originally Posted by egret

"................................

We are supplied the kits as they come from the factory and a seal can be fitted that will make them water tight but it also makes them hard to get into quickly so noone has fitted this seal of course.

The seal we currently fit is a lip seal and we have fully drained the gutter so it would require a large bulk of water to breach the seal which actually seals tighter when compressed by the water pushed against it.

However we are still not happy and we are half way through the manufacture of a new design that will be able to be fitted into the existing opening and will make these hatches both water tight and easy to get into.

We have built 10 of these Fusion 40's now and we have been able to get the leak down to a minimum to almost nill with the kit supplied equipment but it is not good enough for us and we will fix the porblem ourselves and offer the retrofit to others at cost.

We back what we sell and are commited to this product and at our price of $ 470k ex g.s.t. for the basic cruiser it is we feel the best performance/cruiser cat on the market and we don't want something as simple as a leaky hatch to spoil this.

I hope this answers your concerns and you will look further into our Fusion as a great product that actually sails well and is mostly built in Australia.

Fusion Catamarans Mackay Pty Ltd"

QUOTE]

Thanks Egret - it is good that Fusion are doing something to fix their problem but I still don't understand why it is so hard to achieve a TOTALLY watertight seal.

A boat engine hatch is basically a simple rigid rectangular hinged lid which should be very easy to seal unlike a car boot which has several curves and different pressure points especially in large hatchback type vehicles which have numerous curves in them which would be far more difficult to achieve a seal than a boat engine hatch. Car manufacturers don't have any problems like this so maybe the boating industry needs to talk to them. Even someone that buys a $15K car doesn't have problems with their car leaking so boats worth $500K & more should certainly have this problem licked.

The fact of some boats being kit boats is even more reason for boat manufacturers to totally solve this issue otherwise their products reputation will be tarnished in the marketplace probably costing them sales.

[Mr B]

Some one on here could possibly dig up the Aussie consumer laws,

It goes some thing like this.

If the article is not what is advertised and is not suitable for the intended purpose as advertised, or fails to deliver what the advertised item says it should deliver,

A full refund is due,

Its law and it does stand,

Couldn't double sided foam tape fix the hatch from leaking, even temporarily,

I put two layers in my back hatches to stop them leaking, It Worked,
My back hatches dont drain, so they would get a lot of weight from the water in there if allowed to leak,

Approximately, A ton and a half of water in both Hatches if allowed to leak and fill up.
Plus. it would flood into the hulls if it got a lot of water going in, the water would go through the holes the steering cables go through,

Simple fix, Heaps of silicone pumped into the holes. Till they are sealed.


Cheers,
Brian,

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle

It absolutely amazes me that designers like Spirited & Fusion and no doubt others have engine hatches that leak. Surely they would subject their seals to extensive testing to ensure that they were water tight. It's not exactly rocket science to properly seal a hatch and include a more than adequate gutter drain.

How many car designs go on the market today with boots (trunks) that leak? Virtually none, and any that do just need a minor adjustment to the seals and do not a require a total redesign to solve what is a rare problem. Car manufacturers subject their seals to extreme testing including high pressure water hoses like fire hoses to ensure that they do not leak. Why the hell don't boat manufacturers do the same?

In my book it is just downright negligence, shoddy workmanship and a design fault where a boat gets on the market that a buyer does not get much change out of $1 million to have leaky hatches?

Many of these boats are owner built.

[Lagoon4us]

Surely you would notice that when hosing your deck down or when copping a torrential downpour that water was gaining access to the engine room??

You never accept anything that compromises hull integrity, to do so is just silly.

A wake up call has been given......

[dirkdig]

Production boats or not!
I can tell you from experience once the cheque clears regardless of who is at fault certain manufacturers do not want to know you.
Even the self appointed biggest.

[Cookiesa]

Something like car manufacturers lol

[dirkdig]

Well all I can say is that Porsche and Volkswagen do anything for me as a customer.
Maybe it's the German connection there?
Best I never ever buy a French car then.
Or maybe the Germans and the way they look after their customers has spoilt me for life.
Then again $80,000 for a car v's $800,000 for a boat???

[David_Old_Jersey]

+1 on Fusion Mackay.

But to be fair to the designer!, always will be trade offs to be made when designing something for non-production builds. But seems kinda daft that especially when spoonfed a solution (and found one for himself) he has not incorporated into his design......a $50k daysailor I can understand (well, not really, but......) but 1/2 a mill of boat? IMO verging on taking the piss.

But some people I guess have never heard of the Internet..........

[sonora]

I like Peter (SpiritCat) was one of 4 home builders to realise that there was need for improvement of the Spirited 380 hatch sealing system and also improving access to the engine room to allow for ease of fitting engines and also to use Yanmar. I remember one of the builders who had laid up the original hatch system biting the bullet and then removing them for the improved system. This system uses a primary lip seal, another secondary 16mm rubber flat compression seal and a large gutter drain. No compressive foam is used and the seals are compressed by 2 latches in alignment with the seals and on one horizontal plane. The beauty of building in Duflex is that quality improvements like this can be easily made.

I know of another Spirited 380 built directly after Minx that is having similiar modifications to the hatch and I believe is installing a large Lewmar style hatch.
I have also been fortunate to see a friend start building a Fusion 40 from the assembly to, at this stage, taping and would agree with Peter that both these boats are different to each other.

Regards
Sonora

[Ozbullwinkle]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Many of these boats are owner built.

Whether owner built or not if a purchaser of the plans follows them exactly it is still a design fault and the sellers of these plans should be held accountable to the relevant trade practices laws as summarised by Mr B above..

BTW - Minx was not owner built and it seems that the failure of the hatches was one of the primary reasons leading to the abandonment of the vessel.