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Old 12-03-2012, 03:53   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B
On a bucking boat in bad seas and high winds,,

Too the point of having to call for assistance in the middle of an ocean,

Sit back and think about it, What would you do,

You are seriously trying to save your passengers and your boat,

You have a lot of things happening that dont happen at all, ever, any where else.

Sinking in the middle of the ocean can only be practised to a certain extent on land, or in a Marina,

You just dont know what can happen out there and the circumstances that they happen under,

Minx took 3 days before they called for help,

My Beaching happened in less than 10 minutes, From dead calm to smashed on the beach,

over 100 Boats on anchor in the Burnett River were pulled under by their anchor chains getting covered in grass and the weight just dragged them under, That was a flood coming down the river,

Your sails are wrecked,
Your motor or motors are Kaput, For what ever reason,
And this can happen to the most meticulously maintained motors as well.
You have water coming in,
No propulsion, so more than likely you will be beam on to the waves, More water coming in,
Your being thrown around in a washing machine,severely.
Your bilge pumps dont work satisfactorily, or dont work at all.
You have just discovered that they are so far under size that they are useless to cover the incoming water,
Are you going to sink,
Will your vessel sink or float, Is the floatation in it enough to keep it on the surface,
Do you have sick or hysterical people on board to calm down and take care of as well.
Can I take to the life raft out here, Safely, how many people do I have to cram into it,

Bugger it, I should have read that scary thread on CF or M4U, It would have given me a few more idea's to work on, to save my vessel.

Its a little bit different than grabbing another coffee in front of your computer,

and hanging **** on any one that happens to get caught out by circumstances usually well beyond their control.

I hope you do get a boat one day and fullfill your dreams, and actually cast off and go out on the ocean,

I hope you are never in a life threatening situation with a boat, EVER,

It is not a good situation to be in,

Before you ridicule or accuse, take a walk in their shoes,

Cheers,
Brian,
Thumbs up!! Thanks for saying that!
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Old 19-03-2012, 05:13   #242
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Re: Spirited 380 lost in the coral sea

I don't think you can compare the Spirited 380 and the Fusion 40. A Fusion has sailed from France to Australia and visited various places on the way and been through all types of weather without drama as experienced by this Spirited 380.
I know there is a problem on most Fusion 40's with the engine hatches leaking but this can have various differences depending on what seal has been used and what drains have been fitted.
The blokes at Fusion Mackay have nearly got the standard hatch supplied with the kit to seal and there is very little water that gets in if any but I know they are making a complete new hatch that can be fitted into the existing kit without much drama and it has a drain directly out the rear and this design will fix the problem.
I am not sure on the Spirited 380 if the salloon door goes right down to the floor but on the Fusion 40 there is a step that keeps any water that may come in from getting into the main hulls. I would think that most people would keep the salloon door shut in rough weather anyway.
I believe the blokes at Fusion Mackay can build the standard kit out to 45 feet in length. Maybe you should go and see them some time.








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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Minx ,

thanks so much for your straight shooting comments and I can only say that I can feel for you in your loss.

I certainly liked the internal fitout of Minx as per the Multihull mag article and felt Stallion Marine who built minx to be good quality builders.

In my research I note the Fusion 40 is very similar to the Spirited 380 with similar engine salt water issues.

The maintainance guy for a Whitsunday charter boat company with a couple of Fusions said the Fusion had similar drainage issues with engine hatches with salt water dripping on to motor and subsequent corrosion problems.

Seems both the Fusion 40 and Spirited 380 are very capable in coastal crusing they have some design limitations in rough offshore conditions.

From your experience do you think the Robertson and Caine 38/40 ft vessels would have been any better. I suspect not but not from any experience on one.

Thanks again for sharing your experience and good luck for the future.

Cheers
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Old 19-03-2012, 08:53   #243
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Re: Spirited 380 lost in the coral sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by egret View Post
(...) A Fusion has sailed from France to Australia and visited various places on the way and been through all types of weather without drama as experienced by this Spirited 380.

(...)
Excuse me but sailing from France to Australia and visiting various places is no way a test to a boat's quality or seaworthiness. (With some luck it is done without encountering bad weather once.)

Also, it was not bad weather that got that Spirited 380, was it?

Cheers,
b.
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Old 19-03-2012, 12:33   #244
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

Egret's post did mention "all types of weather". It's even there in your quote.
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Old 19-03-2012, 15:29   #245
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Re: Spirited 380 lost in the coral sea

Sailing half way around the world would be a good test to show a boats seaworthiness I would think????
Anyway what did get this boat appears to be bad sealing of engine hatches and also the hatches are placed within the steps at the rear.
Not a good place for them to be when you are exposed to rough weather I would agree.
The Fusion 40 hatch is up on the cockpit floor and you are within this area if you need to get into them during rough seas.
Talking to alot of owners the leaking they get is from a bad seal contact and not enough draining of the gutter that is in the hatch area, it appears they are not using the same section seal as the blokes at Fusion Mackay now use. The redesign that is being done will stop the problem alltogether.
By the way I have been on a Fusion in very bad weather with huge following seas and never got a wave into the cockpit. If I was worried about that I would fit washboards to the back anyway and keep the salloon door closed?????
Fusion 40's and Spirited 380's are in now way anywhere near the same boat and they should not be compaired together. That was my point as it appears they are in your comments??





Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Excuse me but sailing from France to Australia and visiting various places is no way a test to a boat's quality or seaworthiness. (With some luck it is done without encountering bad weather once.)

Also, it was not bad weather that got that Spirited 380, was it?

Cheers,
b.
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Old 19-03-2012, 16:28   #246
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I suggested when it was first abandoned that if it was still on the surface,

It would come ashore at either Rockhampton or Cooktown due to the currents and how they flowed out of the Coral Sea,

the currents flow through the Coral Sea from east to west and then split either up or down the coast.

Minx was in the middle of the westerly current, so could go either way, North or south,

But I am glad he has his boat back, and in one piece,

No, I dont know who spotted it for him,and told him where it was.

Innisfail isnt that far from Cooktown, Approx 200 miles,
I guess 'Rocking Robin' may have snagged a reef on its keel? Have you looked at her demise using current plotting?

Cheers good common sense observations by you. Frank
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Old 19-03-2012, 16:35   #247
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Another multihull that didn't have the decency to sink.
In the spirit of 'Ocean Emu' another returns home, I think it was the inlet at Seventeen-Seventy where she drifted to from Bass Straight.

Good news.
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Old 19-03-2012, 17:36   #248
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

It absolutely amazes me that designers like Spirited & Fusion and no doubt others have engine hatches that leak. Surely they would subject their seals to extensive testing to ensure that they were water tight. It's not exactly rocket science to properly seal a hatch and include a more than adequate gutter drain.

How many car designs go on the market today with boots (trunks) that leak? Virtually none, and any that do just need a minor adjustment to the seals and do not a require a total redesign to solve what is a rare problem. Car manufacturers subject their seals to extreme testing including high pressure water hoses like fire hoses to ensure that they do not leak. Why the hell don't boat manufacturers do the same?

In my book it is just downright negligence, shoddy workmanship and a design fault where a boat gets on the market that a buyer does not get much change out of $1 million to have leaky hatches?
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Old 19-03-2012, 18:07   #249
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
In the spirit of 'Ocean Emu' another returns home, I think it was the inlet at Seventeen-Seventy where she drifted to from Bass Straight.

Good news.
And here it is in all its current glory. I sail on her occasionally
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Old 19-03-2012, 18:10   #250
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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And here it is in all its current glory. I sail on her occasionally
Lol nice! The last i saw her, prior to drifting to the inlet, was here at Gladstone in her purple colours, i think when found all winches etc had been chainsawed out of here???

T'was a god ending... cheers
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Old 19-03-2012, 18:24   #251
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

I here you and I rang Fusion Mackay to ask what they say and here is the reply.

"We cannot comment on what Spirited are doing to fix the problem all we can do is comment on what we are doing.

We are supplied the kits as they come from the factory and a seal can be fitted that will make them water tight but it also makes them hard to get into quickly so noone has fitted this seal of course.

The seals most people have fitted are similar in shape to the old XB Falcon seal and this is about 70% effective if the gutter is well drained.
The seal we currently fit is a lip seal and we have fully drained the gutter so it would require a large bulk of water to breach the seal which actually seals tighter when compressed by the water pushed against it.

However we are still not happy and we are half way through the manufacture of a new design that will be able to be fitted into the existing opening and will make these hatches both water tight and easy to get into.

Please do not confuse us with Fusion International who make the kits as they are not changing the moulds so it is up to us to fix the problem which we will do with this new hatch.

We have built 10 of these Fusion 40's now and we have been able to get the leak down to a minimum to almost nill with the kit supplied equipment but it is not good enough for us and we will fix the porblem ourselves and offer the retrofit to others at cost.

We back what we sell and are commited to this product and at our price of $ 470k ex g.s.t. for the basic cruiser it is we feel the best performance/cruiser cat on the market and we don't want something as simple as a leaky hatch to spoil this.

These kits are also available to others to build themselves and we have no control over what they do to seal their hatches so the product can get a bad rep for something that the owner has not done correctly.

I hope this answers your concerns and you will look further into our Fusion as a great product that actually sails well and is mostly built in Australia.

Fusion Catamarans Mackay Pty Ltd"

I think this was a good reply and shows that this company will help out and does take note of what the market is saying.
The Fusion 40 is a great product in my book and is one of the best on the market. The boat they had at the Sydney boat show was by far the best finished out of all the cats there and there is no caravan like fittings in it at all unlike some of the others.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle View Post
It absolutely amazes me that designers like Spirited & Fusion and no doubt others have engine hatches that leak. Surely they would subject their seals to extensive testing to ensure that they were water tight. It's not exactly rocket science to properly seal a hatch and include a more than adequate gutter drain.

How many car designs go on the market today with boots (trunks) that leak? Virtually none, and any that do just need a minor adjustment to the seals and do not a require a total redesign to solve what is a rare problem. Car manufacturers subject their seals to extreme testing including high pressure water hoses like fire hoses to ensure that they do not leak. Why the hell don't boat manufacturers do the same?

In my book it is just downright negligence, shoddy workmanship and a design fault where a boat gets on the market that a buyer does not get much change out of $1 million to have leaky hatches?
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Old 19-03-2012, 18:39   #252
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

We need to remember that both the Fusion 40 and Spirited 380 are predominatly a kit boat rather than a production boat although there are some of both that have and are being built by professional boatbuilding companies.
The engine hatches as designed by the designer of the 380 have been shown to leak, but that does not mean that a builder needs to use that design. I and others have designed our own hatches that have a bridgdeck opening rather than the stepped opening and these have proven to be watertight, in my case on offshore as well as coastal trips.

There are a lot of similarities in the Fusion and Spirited, but there are more differences and they should not be compared.

Peter
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Old 19-03-2012, 18:44   #253
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

[QUOTE=egret;911954]"................................

We are supplied the kits as they come from the factory and a seal can be fitted that will make them water tight but it also makes them hard to get into quickly so noone has fitted this seal of course.

The seal we currently fit is a lip seal and we have fully drained the gutter so it would require a large bulk of water to breach the seal which actually seals tighter when compressed by the water pushed against it.

However we are still not happy and we are half way through the manufacture of a new design that will be able to be fitted into the existing opening and will make these hatches both water tight and easy to get into.

We have built 10 of these Fusion 40's now and we have been able to get the leak down to a minimum to almost nill with the kit supplied equipment but it is not good enough for us and we will fix the porblem ourselves and offer the retrofit to others at cost.

We back what we sell and are commited to this product and at our price of $ 470k ex g.s.t. for the basic cruiser it is we feel the best performance/cruiser cat on the market and we don't want something as simple as a leaky hatch to spoil this.

I hope this answers your concerns and you will look further into our Fusion as a great product that actually sails well and is mostly built in Australia.

Fusion Catamarans Mackay Pty Ltd"

QUOTE]

Thanks Egret - it is good that Fusion are doing something to fix their problem but I still don't understand why it is so hard to achieve a TOTALLY watertight seal.

A boat engine hatch is basically a simple rigid rectangular hinged lid which should be very easy to seal unlike a car boot which has several curves and different pressure points especially in large hatchback type vehicles which have numerous curves in them which would be far more difficult to achieve a seal than a boat engine hatch. Car manufacturers don't have any problems like this so maybe the boating industry needs to talk to them. Even someone that buys a $15K car doesn't have problems with their car leaking so boats worth $500K & more should certainly have this problem licked.

The fact of some boats being kit boats is even more reason for boat manufacturers to totally solve this issue otherwise their products reputation will be tarnished in the marketplace probably costing them sales.
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Old 19-03-2012, 19:04   #254
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

spiritcat thanks for your reply. What really irks me & no doubt you as an owner is that the boating marketplace seems to accept this issue. The fact that you and other owners have had to go to the additional time and expense to redesign and install your own hatch design is in my way of thinking morally wrong.

Don't boat manufacturers have the equivalent of a car model recall to fix problems like this? Lets face it there would only be low numbers for them to fix unlike the car industry.

Let me ask you this question. If you had bought a car which had cost you the same amount as your Spirited 380 (say a Porche 911 Turbo) and the car boot had leaked would you have expected the car dealer / manufacturer to fix the problem or would you have set about redesigning & replacing the boot? I think I know what your answer will be so why don't boat owners demand the same problem / design fault resolution from boat manufacturers?
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Old 19-03-2012, 19:10   #255
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Re: Spirited 380 Lost in the Coral Sea

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Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle View Post
How many car designs go on the market today with boots (trunks) that leak? Virtually none, and any that do just need a minor adjustment to the seals and do not a require a total redesign to solve what is a rare problem. Car manufacturers subject their seals to extreme testing including high pressure water hoses like fire hoses to ensure that they do not leak. Why the hell don't boat manufacturers do the same?
I reckon my late model European hatchback would leak if I surfed my car at 10kts with a 2m following sea and a 15kt tailwind.

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