Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-01-2013, 01:25   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brisbane
Boat: Fontaine Pajot Belize 43 Maestro
Posts: 12
pirate Spinnaker - Symmetric v's Asymmetric

Hi all
I am about to buy a spinnaker for my Belize 43 and looking for advise on what type to get, symmetrical or asymmetrical. I currently have a screecher on a prodder and have frustrations on not been able to go deep enough down wind and still achieve a level of performance. The screecher gets gassed behind the main and I am thinking of using a spinnaker that is pulled across to the windward bow to capture more wind and allow a deeper angle. The 2 ideas are:
Symmetrical:
Have a sheet and brace line attached to each clew. Each brace will go through a turning block on respective bows and to winches at the mast. The sheets will go to the back corners and up to winches on the coach roof. The windward brace line and leeward sheet line control the spinnaker. When gybing, the boat is turned down wind and the windward brace line is loosened so both sheets are controlling the spinnaker. After the boat goes through the gybe the new windward brace line takes the load and working with the leeward sheet line.

Asymmetrical:
Have 2 tack lines attached to the tack of the sail and 2 sheets lines attached to the clew. Each tack line will go through a bow turning block and up to the winches on the mast. This will give me control over how far to windward of the centre line to have the tack of the sail and I would imagine will give more stability of this aso spinnaker verses a symmetrical spinnaker that can sway from side to side if held above the deck by about 1 metre.

I imagine the symmetrical spinnaker is easier to gybe as you only have to balance the sail using the sheets instead of gybing the whole sail as would be the case with an aso spinnaker.

Has anyone got any recommendations as to what type of spinnaker to use and alternative solutions to running lines back to winches.

Note: I will be using a sock for ease of hoisting and retrieval, especially short handed with only my wife and myself.

Thanks
Pete
__________________

__________________
Pirate Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 07:01   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

You can run the screacher wing-and-wing with the main, but it's not a downwind sail, which is why the spinnaker will be useful

A-sail, no question. The assymmet will be far more versatile. You already have a prodder.

An a-sail tacks like a jib. You only need the one sheet (stbd/port) and you can adjust the tack position using a long tack line, or your two-line situation.

You'll want a block at the tip of your sprit to run the tack line through, and blocks set well aft to run the sheets through. That should be it, unless you rig a bridle of some sort for the tack.

Set the chute by driving VERY deep, using the main to blanket the chute. Have some preset point/baseline and trim the sheet there. Pull the head up (halyard). Pull the tack out. Have helm head up and fill the sail. Trim sheet appropriately. You're done.
__________________

__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 11:47   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,826
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Another vote for the A sail.
We have both types of spinnaker, but the asymmetrical gets used 99% of the time.
My symmetrical usually lives on a shelf in my garage.
__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 16:17   #4
Registered User
 
caradow's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Connecticut/Caribbean
Boat: Voyage 440 Owners Version
Posts: 472
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Sorry but I think you need both.
The asym will be used more but when you want to go dead down it will disappoint you.
In a recent sail from St. Lucia to Los Roques we sailed extra distance because the asym could not get as deep as I wanted. It was very frustrating.
Also last month on a trip from Port Antonio Jamaica to Grand Cayman we encountered the same issue, again sailing extra miles.
And on both occasions the tack was over the windward hull and not set at the end of the prod as another writer recommended. If the tack is on the prod then that is even worse if you want to go deep. It must be brought to windward to maximize VMG.
Therefore I am looking for a used racing symmetrical kite from the throwaway bin from of a high tech monohull racer if anyone knows of one for sale.
My crew are usually from my racing monohull days and know how to trim sails so for what is worth I will have a symmetrical kite very shortly.
__________________
caradow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 17:11   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Caradow

I'll be selling my symmetrical chute before too long. I'll be in touch
__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 18:17   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: caribbean winter, Durango,CO summer
Boat: Nordhavn 5740
Posts: 455
Images: 4
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Caradow,

I look at Bacon Sails & Marine Supplies and Atlantic Sail Traders - Used sails, New sails, Sail Broker
for used sails.
__________________
Bahamas this winter.
gbanker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 18:19   #7
Registered User
 
caradow's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Connecticut/Caribbean
Boat: Voyage 440 Owners Version
Posts: 472
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Great, might just be the one I need especially if it were cut specifically for your Catana.
Just send me the dimensions, age and your impression of the condition.
Would like to have one prior to bringing my boat around the western tip of Cuba from the Cayman's which will most likely be another downwind slog.
Plan on leaving sometime in May.
ciao,
Rusty
__________________
caradow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 18:24   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

If you already have a screecher, I'd suggest a symmetrical spinnaker. IMO you don't really need another reaching sail whereas an assymetrical wouldn't be as good DDW as the symmetrical.

And friends of ours with a symmetrical kite can use it up to better than 90 degrees apparent anyway. So there's plenty of overlap in function.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 19:18   #9
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,332
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

I've had sprit mounted chutes, chutes flown from twin tack lines, and screachers. Some thoughts.

  • Apparent wind angle does not tell the whole story. An A-chute will be going significantly deeper than a screacher at the same angle, because it is larger and you're going faster.
  • A-Chutes flown on the centerline, sprit or not, don't like to go deeper than 100 degrees apparent. Sorry.
  • A-chutes tacked to the bow, cut for going deep, and with the sheet hauled down, can go about 130 degrees apparent, which is about 155 degrees true. That's pretty deep and not many courses are deeper. Less rolling. less jibe risk.
Not sayin' symmetrical do not have there strengths. On a cruising cat I believe a relatively full a-chute tacked to bows is most versatile. On a performance cat a sprit a-chute sail is better, because of the greater ratio of boat speed to wind speed. I've had both. I used the screacher less; if I was off the wind I put up the chute, up wind used working sails, so the screacher window seemed limited, to me.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2013, 20:53   #10
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Just been through this process myself for a 42 foot cat. Like you i was frustrated with deep downwind performance of my screecher and so started looking at my options. Basically assym vs symm and what I would use more.

Ive got a reasonably full cut screecher so its the deep downwind only that im concerned about and so that tilted me towards symmetric. Once i got there I ended up going with a parasailor as they are (supposedly) easier to fly for long periods shorthanded.

Cost put me off a new one but turns out QLD seems to be where the second hand ones wind up after the pacific crossing. Theres still one or 2 for sale I think up there...
__________________
Barra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2013, 16:36   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brisbane
Boat: Fontaine Pajot Belize 43 Maestro
Posts: 12
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Thanks everyone for your comments. It is interesting how varied the opinions are regarding Aso and symmetric spinnakers. Faster cats and tri's will have the apparent wind come further forward requiring an aso to hold its shape and I suspect this is influencing some our your views.
Recently sailing from Tahiti to Australia with the trade winds behind me would have been an ideal opportunity to use a symmetrical chute. Now that I am only going to be sailing up and down the east coast of Australia with SE and NE breezes an aso with a tack line mounted to both bows will probably be the solution.
My original thought was a symmetrical chute but this may be the second (back up) chute acquired at a later time.
Cheers
Pete
__________________
Pirate Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2013, 16:23   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brisbane
Boat: Fontaine Pajot Belize 43 Maestro
Posts: 12
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

http://www.sailmagazine.com/boat-han...sing-catamaran

Thanks Tamicanta for the link. Interesting use of a symmetrical spinnaker with the extra snubber line on the leeward clew used as a stabilizing line to stop swaying.

Pete
__________________
Pirate Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 04:55   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Pete,

linky no worky. Here 'tis: Maximize Your Performance on a Cruising Catamaran | Sail Magazine

We call it "chasing the apparent."
" ...soon as the north end of Guana is abeam, you can, if you like, bear off to a run. But as you do this the boat suddenly feels stuck in the water, and the jib droops in the lee of the main. Dead downwind is a weak point of sail for just about any multihull. You’ll do much better if you head up until the jib fills again—maybe even a little higher—until the apparent wind angle is around 140 to 120 degrees. All of a sudden you and the boat will be having fun again, and you’ll be making better time to leeward. A double win!

“Always sail on a reach,” says North Sails multihull expert Paul van Dyke. “Try to avoid picking a destination straight down- or upwind.”

If you have one, now’s the time to set a spinnaker tacked to the windward bow and sheeted to the leeward quarter. If you don’t have a spinnaker, try sheeting the jib to the outside of the leeward hull, perhaps to a midship cleat."
__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 05:28   #14
Registered User
 
delatbabel's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 113
Re: Spinnaker - Symmetric v's asymmetric

Gonna tell you a different story.

You already have a screecher? Good on you. It's a reaching sail just like an asy, not that good dead downwind as others have commented.

Get a staysail. If your mast has room for a second pole fitting, get one of those and a second pole. Pole the genoa out one side, and the staysail out the other side and you have a much better wing on wing solution than either an asy or a symmmetric spinnaker. Much more stable than going wing and wing with either main/genoa or main/screecher.

I have an asy and it's great for wind angles between about 100 and 150, but for dead downwind I put it away and use the two-pole configuration.

Here's mine (added as an attachment). Note that the main is packed away, just running with the two headsails.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2236.jpg
Views:	438
Size:	417.5 KB
ID:	53710  
__________________
delatbabel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2013, 15:34   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
There's no reason not to run screacher and jib wing-and-wing...
__________________

__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
asymmetric, spinnaker

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spinnaker Furling System Question Kenomac Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 23 28-12-2012 16:33
Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric olliric Multihull Sailboats 30 11-04-2012 16:53
For Sale: ATN Spinnaker Sock / Sleeve - 58' Catopia Classifieds Archive 2 06-03-2012 17:39
Masthead Crane / Spinnaker Bail LIsailor Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 13 14-02-2012 12:24
Asymmetric Spinnaker Weight / Rigging CHM General Sailing Forum 4 03-02-2012 04:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.