Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-04-2012, 14:33   #16
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

For a cat I would go the full monthy way. This should max the performance for anything from app say 135 to dead run. Then you may get a chute to cover the 060 to 0135 gap, there are such things.

b.
__________________

__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 14:36   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Don't have to leave them up, both can be set Using dynema or spectra stays and halyards and hoisted and tensioned and then furled and stowed below decks when not in use
It is very common on cats to have the reaching sail permanent on the prodder. The furler control line led aft the same way as the genoa furler. Taking it down is a lot of work as the control line has to be unspliced to be removed from the sheaves on the stanchions.
The spi is the only one that needs to be taken down so a sock makes more sense to me. Since the attachment is very close (1 foot) if they were to be both on the prodder they will interfere with each other and spoil the sail entry flow.
__________________

__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 14:54   #18
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Furler or sock, different flavours of the same thing really...

Since you are commited to the reacher the real question at hand is sym vs asym. You are really the only one who can answer this as from a performance perspective their choice is derived from your boats polars. Also from a real performance perspective, if you had the cash you should have both as they perform different tasks and both would have a slot in your sail arsenal, especially if you tell your sailmaker in advance of your plans then he can design the sailing angles optimal wind ranges of the reacher, asym and sym to compliment each other.

Edit: forgot about the slot issue, could you not have the prodder long enough that the reacher/code zero and the asym attachment points would be far enough apart?especially if the asym was designed to have a longish tack line, say 1m?
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 15:23   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by olliric View Post
I agree there is quite a bit of overlap.
One problem with the sym spi run off the bows is that may require to take down the screecher furler and lift/remove the prodder. With the prodder out there is the risk of damaging the spinnaker tacked on the bow. That may be a major hassle as I would like to keep the screecher always on and have permanently set countinuous furler line.
If you run the sym off the prodder then you may as well use an assym.
Friends of ours have a reacher permanently carried on a prodder, (It's even on a normal hard luff furler) and use a symmetrical kite off both bows. Seems to work very well for them.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 15:42   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,062
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by olliric View Post
It is very common on cats to have the reaching sail permanent on the prodder. The furler control line led aft the same way as the genoa furler. Taking it down is a lot of work as the control line has to be unspliced to be removed from the sheaves on the stanchions.
The spi is the only one that needs to be taken down so a sock makes more sense to me. Since the attachment is very close (1 foot) if they were to be both on the prodder they will interfere with each other and spoil the sail entry flow.
Have you ever sailed a boat with screacher left on while not needed? Let me tell you IMHO it is a bad idea!

1- they tend to unravel in high winds
2- when the boat pitches, the whipping around of the furled sail can cause mast pumping, and/or add stress to the standing rigging
3- extra weight aloft is always a bad thing
4- extra windage forward will increase "hunting" at anchor, and increase likelyhood of dragging anchor
5- the extra windage will slow the boat on a reach and to windward when not in use. It could also push you closer to the edge if capsize is a risk.
6- the ONLY reason to keep it up when not in use is for convenience, but that is negated by all the above.

The simple solution is to use a quick release pin ABOVE the furler drum so your furling controls are always in place, and it's easy to detach the sail from the drum. Make sure your prodder/sprit is made retractable so the furler can be easily reached from your bow nets.
__________________
SailFastTri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 15:44   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Friends of ours have a reacher permanently carried on a prodder, (It's even on a normal hard luff furler) and use a symmetrical kite off both bows. Seems to work very well for them.
No issue with the sym getting damaged on the prodder? How long is the prodder? Mine sticks out about 2 meters in front of the line between the clew blocks on the bows.
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 15:47   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,458
Images: 69
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Theirs is about 1 - 1.5 m, from memory. The reacher is mounted at the end of it.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 16:04   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
Have you ever sailed a boat with screacher left on while not needed? Let me tell you IMHO it sucks!

1- they tend to unravel in high winds
2- when the boat pitches, the whipping around of the furled sail can cause mast pumping, and/or add stress to the standing rigging
3- extra weight aloft is always a bad thing
4- extra windage forward will increase "hunting" at anchor, and increase likely hood of dragging anchor
5- the extra windage will slow the boat on a reach and to windward when not in use. It could also push you closer to the edge if capsize is a risk.
6- the ONLY reason to keep it up when not in use is for convenience, but that is negated by all the above.

The simple solution is to use a quick release pin ABOVE the furler drum so your furling controls are always in place, and it's easy to detach the sail from the drum. Make sure your prodder/sprit is made retractable so the furler can be easily reached from your bow nets.
At least around here in Langkawi many cats (there are lots) that are actively cruising do leave the screechers on. A bit like cutter rigs, two sails on furlers.
The genoa and the screecher are far enough apart.
Most of your points on why not keep it on do make sense but probably are not so compelling if you are in the tropics cruising around in the right season.

Yes, removing the sail while leaving the furler is a great idea I have seen on some boats that are in the marinas for longer periods. It does make the removal much easier.

Yes, the prodder will be lifting/removable and also have the feature of being able to be moved to windward for better trim when sailing deeper
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 16:12   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishsailor View Post
Furler or sock, different flavours of the same thing really...

Since you are commited to the reacher the real question at hand is sym vs asym. You are really the only one who can answer this as from a performance perspective their choice is derived from your boats polars. Also from a real performance perspective, if you had the cash you should have both as they perform different tasks and both would have a slot in your sail arsenal, especially if you tell your sailmaker in advance of your plans then he can design the sailing angles optimal wind ranges of the reacher, asym and sym to compliment each other.

Edit: forgot about the slot issue, could you not have the prodder long enough that the reacher/code zero and the asym attachment points would be far enough apart?especially if the asym was designed to have a longish tack line, say 1m?
It's a difficult choice. Both are great sails I one day may buy. But I guess I'll start with one.

3 furlers are domain of single handlers, likely racers. Too many lines going aft. Also a big enough slot is not easy to achieve without moving the screecher too close to the genoa. Long poles are difficult to support.
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 16:14   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Theirs is about 1 - 1.5 m, from memory. The reacher is mounted at the end of it.
that's promising. The sail may not snag the prodder then.
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 17:27   #26
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by olliric View Post
It is very common on cats to have the reaching sail permanent on the prodder. (...)
If the boat is in permanent cruising mod then it may be a good idea to have a UV protecting sleeve hoisted over the furled thing (sure only when not likely to be used). Kites are often Nylon and they do not like UV radiation. Sometimes I watch boats sitting in our marina with the kite rolled and sitting like this for weeks. Then I think: cats, furled kites, rich people ;-)

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2012, 18:10   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,062
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by olliric View Post
At least around here in Langkawi many cats (there are lots) that are actively cruising do leave the screechers on. A bit like cutter rigs, two sails on furlers.
The genoa and the screecher are far enough apart.
Most of your points on why not keep it on do make sense but probably are not so compelling if you are in the tropics cruising around in the right season.
You failed to recognize great advice for what it is. You've made up your mind based on what you've seen others do so obviously (since they've done it) you can too. I gave you 5 reasons not to do it and most of them can put you and your boat in peril under certain circumstances, and you say they're not compelling.

You'll find out the first time you encounter a thunderstorm with strong gusts, or choppy seas in a wind-against- tide situation.
__________________
SailFastTri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 03:32   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
You failed to recognize great advice for what it is. You've made up your mind based on what you've seen others do so obviously (since they've done it) you can too. I gave you 5 reasons not to do it and most of them can put you and your boat in peril under certain circumstances, and you say they're not compelling.

You'll find out the first time you encounter a thunderstorm with strong gusts, or choppy seas in a wind-against- tide situation.
Hopefully I won't enrage you with the comments on your points
It may be beneficial for the tread readers

1- they tend to unravel in high winds
The screecher is much heavier than a spi cloth and is furled on a double luff line. In addition it is well tensioned with a 2:1 halyard to make it easy to furl it. It doubt it will unravel if it is furled properly.

2- when the boat pitches, the whipping around of the furled sail can cause mast pumping, and/or add stress to the standing rigging
The good tension on the halyard will prevent pumping especially with a rig with up and lower shrouds. That kind of rig on a cat is the least likely to pump.

3- extra weight aloft is always a bad thing
The loss of stability because of the weight is negligeble. A minimun increase of the COG will not affect the point at which the boat start to flip. It will just make it a bit faster to flip once started.

4- extra windage forward will increase "hunting" at anchor, and increase likely hood of dragging anchor.
A Rocna 33 will take care of the extra windage

5- the extra windage will slow the boat on a reach and to windward when not in use. It could also push you closer to the edge if capsize is a risk.
The speed loss can be recovered by the speed gains of using a sail easily available. If there is too much hassle involved in set it up then the sail does not get used as much and that is a major speed loss.

You have almost convinced me to take it down by pulling the pin above the furler.
How much space would a furled screecher take in a locker. What would the min radius for storage
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 03:37   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 55
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
If the boat is in permanent cruising mod then it may be a good idea to have a UV protecting sleeve hoisted over the furled thing (sure only when not likely to be used). Kites are often Nylon and they do not like UV radiation. Sometimes I watch boats sitting in our marina with the kite rolled and sitting like this for weeks. Then I think: cats, furled kites, rich people ;-)

b.
The screecher can have a protection strip like genoas. Spinnakers can't. The sleeve can't be tight enough to avoid flapping in the wind.
Spis are best stored away IMHO. With the sock or on the luff rope. Unless of course you have money to burn
__________________
olliric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 06:28   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
Re: Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric

Quote:
Originally Posted by olliric View Post
A BRIDLE will take care of the extra windage
fixed it for ya.


You can bring a furled screach down and lay it along the deck, which is what I do on my trimaran. I use bungees to keep it tidy. See pic below.


Since you're wanting the screacher therefore will have a sprit, it would be best to go assymmet. You can have some pretty full-cut a-sails made. My cruising chute is quite full, my racing chute flat. Very different VMG downwind.

Overlap was mentioned. In medium-light airs, my racing chute does indeed have a fair amount of overlap with my screach, so for deep DW lighter airs, I'd go with the fuller cut chute. As the wind picks up, then the reachability of an A-sail is less, and you get better downwind VMG. Of course, then again, in light airs, one can sail to weather with a screacher (in my case up to about 8kt) then as the wind picks up I go to the blade jib for weather sailing.
__________________

__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
asymmetric, spinnaker

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ipad or Galaxy? Hoohaa Marine Electronics 21 09-10-2015 10:18
Sunsets or Best Pictures fkittson Fishing, Recreation & Fun 52 17-04-2012 08:38
Spinnaker Symmetric or Asymmetric olliric Multihull Sailboats 30 11-04-2012 16:53
Does Ford Dorset 2701e Stop Switch Activate When Forward or Back? Shanaly Engines and Propulsion Systems 4 07-04-2012 03:18
Sailing Co-op or Other Old Soul Wayne General Sailing Forum 17 06-04-2012 14:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.