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Old 30-12-2014, 14:44   #1
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South African Cats

Hi Guys, new to the forum and as I stated in my first thread 'OZ CAT QUESTION' the other day that I was new to the Cat Craft and am hoping you Guys will be able to give me some feedback.

Have been doing some reading of the existing threads and have noted that some folk herein stating that South African cats are 'pretty ordinary' going upwind.

Is this the general case for ALL or only some brands/models of some brands.

Accordingly being somewhat more specific how does a 2002 Leopard 42 and a 2002 Simonis Maxim Voyage 380 rate in that department and in all other aspects as well?

Thanks
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:04   #2
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Re: SOUTH AFRICAN CATS

Ive sailed a lot of cats (S African and otherwise) and a lot of monos. Most cruising boats, cat or mono, are "pretty ordinary" going to windward regardless of make or country or origin. If you want exceptional windward performance then you want a "performance cruiser" or racer. In the case of a cat, that usually means one with boards.

My definition of "pretty ordinary" would be 45į apparent and about theoretical displacement hull speed at best. Most cruising cats with keels, as opposed to boards, will do this. Common S African cruising cats, like Leopard, will do at least this. IMHO this is plenty good for cruising use. Boats that do much better than this are generally classified as "performance cruisers" or racers.

If you really want a cat with exceptional windward performance then start looking at more aggressive cats with boards. Chris White designs have exceptional windward performance, not a S African design but some are built there, but of course that comes at a stiff price.
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Old 30-12-2014, 16:23   #3
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Re: South African Cats

belizesailor beat me to it. I think he gave as good an answer as you're gonna get inasmuch as there are few, if any, that have sailed all the cats and models. Perhaps delivery skippers have the data set to better answer, but you'd have to filter out who they deliver for. i.e., if they work for Leopard what do you think they'll say?

I do think that the typical charter-targeted cat can find an upwind groove higher than 45* apparent, but even this can be misleading - how fast will it be going? This is all about VMG, not apparent wind angles or tacking angles. The AC 72 boats tack thru only 100* - but look how fast they're going!

But you'll be able to judge for yourself whether a particular boat will be "ordinary" compared to others. Just look at the hull volumes at the water line, length, apparent weight, and sail area. Short and fat and heavy and under powerd means what? Long, skinny, ample power, and light with boards means what? See, you know this already!

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 18:22   #4
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Re: South African Cats

Ok 2Hulls and belizesailor thank you for your quick replies.

Like to add some comments to the second part of my post:

"Accordingly being somewhat more specific how does a 2002 Leopard 42 and a 2002 Simonis Maxim Voyage 380 rate in that department and in all other aspects as well?"

As I'm trying to gather info on a number of 'specific' Cats that may suit my criteria.

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Old 30-12-2014, 18:50   #5
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Re: South African Cats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIAS View Post
As I'm trying to gather info on a number of 'specific' Cats that may suit my criteria.
What is your criteria?

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 22:45   #6
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Re: South African Cats

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
What is your criteria?

2 Hulls Dave

Hi Dave....

1. Be able to provide a 'decent' sailing experience.

2.Easy to sail, be able to be handled two up and possibly single handed if the occasion called for.

3. Have 'good' creature comforts.


My only Cat 'experience' is limited to a 1500k/850 NM delivery on a Lagoon 440 which had all the creature comforts but when the wind eased we were doing a lot of motoring or motoring plus headsail.

Was impressed with its rough weather handling capabilities as at the start after leaving port we ran in 35/45 knot winds with rain squalls for over a day in big swells.

We were surfing down some of the swells at 16+ knts and on the first one as we were heading down into the trough I held my breath so to speak as a mono sailor I expected the bows to go under and the water wash back over the coach house but as it came to the bottom of the trough it just gently rode up and over the on coming swell.

That's when I gained mega respect for the beast.

Another time was when the boat slid sideways back down a trough and just rode back up on the following swell with no water coming on board.

But all was not roses as IMHO the bridge deck is a disaster area in rough weather especially at night with those 'can be slippery in the wet steps/stairs' when the boat is in motion and especially in cool climes it is like sitting in a noisy refrigerator. Bridge deck might good in the tropics or coming into the marinas. Suggest another inside helm is needed because steering at night under sail in the rough is not recommended with the auto pilot.
Oh and then there was the hitting the whale incident but that's another tale.

looks like this has turned into a Lagoon 440 review, talk of hijacking ones own thread.

Back to the topic...... so Dave how IYHO would the Leopard 42 or Maxim Voyage 380 stack up to my criteria or are there some others that you would throw into the ring.

Btw the Leopard IMHO has the best queen bed access if that counts for much as in the middle of the night one does not need to crawl over the other party if one needs to get up.
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Old 31-12-2014, 08:41   #7
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Re: South African Cats

Hi again, ALIAS. That's the most honest forum name going...

I'll offer my reactions to your criteria in hopes that others do so as well. It's impossible that any two of us would agree across the board, so you need as many objective views as you can get, then filter them to get the nuggets of value to you.

The passage you did on the 440 was a good thing to do. Few prospective cats buyers do this and you're way ahead in this regard. This probably addressed several general cat facts or fictions and perhaps you should fanagle a few more passages on others. Soon you'll be an expert. You've done the flybridge, next try a low slung Simonis design. A shorter passage will do on this one, perhaps. Then any garden variety production cat from other builders and finally a higher bridgedeck boarded boat. Any time on a Privilege will be well spent. Of course, arranging long passages on multiple boats may be impractical. Just get on as many others as you can and sail them upwind as this was the topic of your original question. But so far, what you experienced on the 440 (neglecting the flybridge) will almost certainly not be as good on the Leopard 42 or Maxim V 38 concerning "underway" factors. It's a bigger and better boat in my view. I've sailed a 440 several times and it was on my short list.

As for your specific points, I'll start with the easiest first:

Quote:
Btw the Leopard IMHO has the best queen bed access if that counts for much as in the middle of the night one does not need to crawl over the other party if one needs to get up.
This is an easily overlooked attribute that my Admiral and I didn't appreciate until our first charter together. After that, one of our research screens was a fore and aft "island" berth in the owners cabin. I think the 440 has this. An island berth makes making the bed easier and solves the climbing over problem. In the end the boat I got does not have an island berth, but it is a king, and thus is square, so we set it up fore and aft rather than athwart ship as was intended. If/when we have to replace the mattress, we may modify it to be a queen pseudo island to permit making it up easier. Bottom line, this attribute is what it is and you have to prioritize it.

Quote:
1. Be able to provide a 'decent' sailing experience.
Of course. Especially if you have a long history of dinghy, beach cat, fine sailing mono experience, or have raced anything. Many cruising cat buyers don't. Hence there are a lot of poor sailing cats out there and the owners don't know the difference - or they don't care because their priorities were different. Usually the poorer sailing cats are terrific at anchor or on a dock.

Quote:
2.Easy to sail, be able to be handled two up and possibly single handed if the occasion called for.
Any cruising cat will do for this. One of my pet peeves is seeing ads for cats that claim "all lines led to the helm for easy single handing." Hell, who wants that unless you can't get a date? This set up can mean that you HAVE to single hand because two or certainly not three can fit at the helm to tack. Imagine flying elbows in close quarters. The Admiral and I double hand our 47 footer the vast majority of the time and we're little people. Our combined weight is about 240 pounds/109 kg. With manual primaries.

Quote:
3. Have 'good' creature comforts.
They all do. The differences here are at the detail and system levels as further defined by your personal desires and intended cruising grounds and cruising style. Marinas or remote anchorages? GenSet and AC or "we don't need that". Of course, the bigger the boat the more comfort - which includes storage capacity.

Quote:
so Dave how IYHO would the Leopard 42 or Maxim Voyage 380 stack up to my criteria or are there some others that you would throw into the ring.
So these two must be close to you and/or represent your budget constraints? I did charter a Leopard 45 in 2002, but have never sailed a Maxim Voyage 380. If these represent your size range I'd recommend you research a Privilege 39 and the older style Lagoon 380 or 410 - I've sailed both a L380 and 410 (as well as a 440) and they'll be better sailors than either the Leopard 42 or Maxim V 38, IMHO. Since you were impressed with the 440 but not considering it I am assuming this is out of your budget range. For the same reason I can't recommend any board boats except perhaps the Catana 401 or 411, neither of which I have sailed and they are rare. I expect you'll get other recommendations from other respondents. Good.

Good luck,
2 Hulls Dave
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