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Old 07-08-2019, 05:34   #1
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Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I look at what I can get with seawind for $410k vs the same basic outfit with Outremer is $950k USD.

Keep in mind these are base prices and I am looking at 5-10yr used as well.

Seawind 1160 lite is a fast Cat, it also has a luxurious indoor outdoor flow with that sliding door that opens into the roof. I like the glass can we lowered so you are no viewing glass through glass when at a helm, also you have a window above to see what the sails are doing.

Im trying to see where the difference in base price of the Outremer is? Some I know prefer an open helm/cockpit, for me the Seawinds are fine.

I dont mean to pick on Outremer here, clearly they make amazing boats.

But on the used market for the price of a new Seawind you are buying 15-20yo Outremer, which may or may not need a major over haul.

Any thoughts of other performance cats that are good value for money?
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Old 07-08-2019, 07:47   #2
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I've owned two Seawinds, the most recent a 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite that we just took delivery of in February. We spent three months cruising the Bahamas in it, before crossing the Gulf and home to Texas. The boat met all expectations, and probably exceeded mine regarding how well she moves in light wind.

At $410k base price, you are talking about a Seawind 1260. That boat just came out a couple of years ago, so you probably wont find one used. I couldn't find a used Lite in the US, which is why we purchased new. But regarding the pricing, you need to look at what is included in the base boat. That's FOB Vietnam, and no options. My $310k base boat 1160 Lite totaled around $430k delivered to US, with shipping, commissioning, and factory options and some other equipment I installed myself. My guess is a well-equipped 1260 probably totals in the mid 600's.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:00   #3
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Oh for sure I have no doubt about base prices, but keep in mind that will be the same for Outremer.

To be honest the 1000xl is actually plenty big enough for me.

The safest boat is the one that can do its voyage the fastest, less time on the high seas = major reduction in catastrophic failure occuring.

The 1000xl is another 2000lb less displacement than the 1160, so even lighter once again, I think the XL when they put the carbon in dropped 500lb.

One thing I really like is they use outboards. No drag when under way, plus you can hose them down with fresh water when not in use.

They seem so manouverable? Thats why I think fuel is over rated. I dont buy a yacht to be a motor yacht like a huge Leopard or Lagoon, which is fine if thats what you are buying it for, if that were the case Id defenitely guy an Outrememer as they are also quick upwind.

ive seen the original 1000 for as low as $150k AU, its going to need outboard work I reckon. None the less still a good buy.

Im in no rush. I would like to see them used dagger boards though. I know the 1190 up use daggers, not sure about the 1160? definitely a big up help up wind.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:40   #4
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Where are you located?
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:01   #5
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Apologies for hijacking the post but since the topic mentions Seawind 1260s and Outremers... I'm actually considering both, we a lean currently towards the 1260. Among the concerns holding me back is the size. The Outremer 45 is a little bigger albeit still with narrow hulls, which I assume translates into more storage and more stability in rougher conditions. Any 1260 (or 1160) owners care to comment on how stable the boat is in rougher conditions in the open ocean, versus something slightly longer?

I've sailed a 1260, but not in rough seas. Awesome boat. Wish it had a better spot for a washer/dryer, and a little more storage but that's the tradeoff for a boat that sails so well I guess.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:11   #6
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I can comment on the Outremer 51 but not the 45. We found that in addition to sailing well in light air, our boat is surprisingly comfortable in heavy air too. One of the often overlooked things about light cats is the ability to sail fast with less sail up. In winds above 20 knots, we sail with a triple reefed main (or no main) and a self tacking working jib, which is really easy to manage from the helm. The boat is fast and flat with modest banging from wave slaps. Crossing the Pacific from the Galapagos to the Marquesas, we had one stretch of seven 200+ plus mile days in a row in 18 to 23 knots of trade wind conditions with just a triple reefed main and jib. The boat was easily managed by one person on watch.
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Old 07-08-2019, 14:57   #7
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Lighter boats are maneuverable.

However light weight alone is not a good thing, you need a hull designed to compliment this this light weight setup, as speed is nothing without control. Outremer achieved exactly this with their 50 footers and up, surprisingly, the 5X is a stout ship with good hydro and aero work.

However, let's not think that money = quality OR even money = cost of just materials. French labour costs is a major thing I've seen pop up at even the Toronto boat show. The labour costs don't always end up translating to a better boat, everybody cuts corners somehow, even Lagoon is not THAT customizable as you would think, and that's factory direct.
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Old 07-08-2019, 16:08   #8
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Dagger board non custom boats seem like they cost twice that of mini keels non custom boats.
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Old 07-08-2019, 17:01   #9
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvSun View Post
Oh for sure I have no doubt about base prices, but keep in mind that will be the same for Outremer.

To be honest the 1000xl is actually plenty big enough for me.


SNIP
I have a 1000 with one meter sugar scoops added; to make it basically an xl. I looked at lots of boats before I bought it and one of the biggest attractions for me was how big it seemed compared to things like Fboats, PDQ, and a few other what I term semi performance cats. I liked how much space and capacity things like FPs, Lagoons, and the like had but wanted a boat that sailed better than they did.

Thing is after eight years of owning the boat I am not in the process of removing stuff from the boat. A lot of how folks assess how big a boat is relates to expectations. When I see comments relating to things like washer/dryers, gensets, and AC it is clear that they are coming from a much different place than I am.

As an example I just replaced my 5hp Honda driven hookah with an all electric hookah and a lipo battery for it. Cut the weight more than in half and it easily fits in my inflatable. This toy is mandatory for me since I do lots of diving. I also think it is important to have a good solar array and house bank to do things like keep the hookah's lipo charged and run the fridge, my computer, nav stuff, and the like. But I also get it that some folks think nothing of turning on the genset.

I know folks who think I live in luxury while others view me as living like a savage.

Truth be told an Outremer would likely run circles around a Seawind; and to some folks this is a really important thing. This is a big reason for the price difference. But my Seawind is often the fastest boat in the harbor; which is good enough for me.

First thing you need to do is set your price point. Next see which boat best fits your needs AND is at or below your price point. I picked the Seawind because it met those two criteria; along with giving the best bang for the buck compared to some other more expensive and nicer boats.

Point is that just like horses for courses boats for owners makes sense as well. You just have to figure out which type of owner you are.
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Old 08-08-2019, 00:19   #10
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Some cars are 50+ times the price of others.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:20   #11
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Some cars are 50+ times the price of others.
Beat me to it.

Base price on a new corvette is $56k msrp.

Base price on the cheapest ferrari is north of $200k.

Other than appeasing your ego slightly more, both go darn fast.

Heck a sub-$20k econobox will easily exceed the maximum freeway speed limit.

While I'm sure the outreamer is a very nice boat, I'm betting branding is the bulk of the cost difference.
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Old 08-08-2019, 03:43   #12
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

French skilled labor ~€300/day plus benefits?
Vietnam closer to €30/day
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Old 08-08-2019, 03:47   #13
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I suggest looking at some older catanas, great performance cruiser with a lot of room for storages. The Outremars are just long narrow hulls and exposed helm.
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Old 08-08-2019, 04:45   #14
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Vietnam labour may be cheaper. The allyactspars rig is made in Australia. The deck gear and electronics European. The engines Japan. Etc etc.
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Old 08-08-2019, 05:59   #15
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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I suggest looking at some older catanas, great performance cruiser with a lot of room for storages. The Outremars are just long narrow hulls and exposed helm.


The newer Outremers have exposed tiller steering on each hull and also a bulkhead mounted wheel. The Catana’s have the exposed wheel steering on each stern.
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