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Old 12-08-2019, 11:14   #76
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I have not been on a Outremer, although I intend to check them out in a few months in Annapolis. But I can speak for the Seawinds, at least the newer ones. I've chartered nearly new FPs and Lagoons as well. Minor issues on a nearly new Saba really caused me to question FPs QC. Chrome finishes throughout the interior were already showing checking and rust. Seawinds are definitely a step above the FPs, Lagoons, etc... in terms of build quality, IMO. The fit and finish are much more durable. And the rigidity and strength seems higher as well - the Seawind had no creaking or "complaining" in rougher seas, whereas I could hear the FPs and Lagoons flexing.

I love FPs designs in terms of livability and anchor-enjoyment. They do a great job of laying out their cats. But the cost is obviously performance, the usual trade off. That, I can deal with. But the durability and QC issues are concerning.
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:35   #77
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Originally Posted by LuvSun View Post
I look at what I can get with seawind for $410k vs the same basic outfit with Outremer is $950k USD.

Keep in mind these are base prices and I am looking at 5-10yr used as well.

Seawind 1160 lite is a fast Cat, it also has a luxurious indoor outdoor flow with that sliding door that opens into the roof. I like the glass can we lowered so you are no viewing glass through glass when at a helm, also you have a window above to see what the sails are doing.

Im trying to see where the difference in base price of the Outremer is? Some I know prefer an open helm/cockpit, for me the Seawinds are fine.

I dont mean to pick on Outremer here, clearly they make amazing boats.

But on the used market for the price of a new Seawind you are buying 15-20yo Outremer, which may or may not need a major over haul.

Any thoughts of other performance cats that are good value for money?
Comparing the smaller Seawind with the 51 foot Outremer doesn't seem quite fair. The 52 foot Seawind 1600 has a base price of $859,000 which is within striking distance of the Outremer at $941,000. Both great boats.
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Old 12-08-2019, 11:53   #78
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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And croissants, and, and, and...
and Peugeots - the butt of many, many good hearted laughs on Car Talk*. Those guys never passed up an opportunity to take a swipe at Peugeot when the topic was unreliable cars.

Long way around to making the point that not everything French is the most robustly engineered or assembled.

*A former US public radio talk show on the topic of car repair. Two brothers, Tom and Ray Magliozzi, otherwise known as 'Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers'.
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:44   #79
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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and Peugeots - the butt of many, many good hearted laughs on Car Talk*. Those guys never passed up an opportunity to take a swipe at Peugeot when the topic was unreliable cars.

Long way around to making the point that not everything French is the most robustly engineered or assembled.

*A former US public radio talk show on the topic of car repair. Two brothers, Tom and Ray Magliozzi, otherwise known as 'Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers'.
.. And the Citoën deuxcheveaux CV2... A cult car, transporting a basket of eggs across a plantation... Minimalistic, low-tech and lots of fun.
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Old 12-08-2019, 13:26   #80
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

I found a site that said the base price of the Outremer 51 is 720,000 Euros which is $807,000.
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Old 12-08-2019, 14:12   #81
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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and Peugeots - the butt of many, many good hearted laughs on Car Talk*. Those guys never passed up an opportunity to take a swipe at Peugeot when the topic was unreliable cars.

Long way around to making the point that not everything French is the most robustly engineered or assembled.

*A former US public radio talk show on the topic of car repair. Two brothers, Tom and Ray Magliozzi, otherwise known as 'Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers'.
I had a Peugeot 205GTi many years ago which was like an oversized go-kart to drive, great fun, quick and reliable but I agree that I wouldn't rate most french cars that highly for reliability.
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Old 12-08-2019, 14:29   #82
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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and Peugeots - the butt of many, many good hearted laughs on Car Talk*. Those guys never passed up an opportunity to take a swipe at Peugeot when the topic was unreliable cars.
The 504 had an excellent reputation for toughness and reliability.
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Old 12-08-2019, 15:38   #83
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Originally Posted by 3cdad View Post
I have not been on a Outremer, although I intend to check them out in a few months in Annapolis. But I can speak for the Seawinds, at least the newer ones. I've chartered nearly new FPs and Lagoons as well. Minor issues on a nearly new Saba really caused me to question FPs QC. Chrome finishes throughout the interior were already showing checking and rust. Seawinds are definitely a step above the FPs, Lagoons, etc... in terms of build quality, IMO. The fit and finish are much more durable. And the rigidity and strength seems higher as well - the Seawind had no creaking or "complaining" in rougher seas, whereas I could hear the FPs and Lagoons flexing.

I love FPs designs in terms of livability and anchor-enjoyment. They do a great job of laying out their cats. But the cost is obviously performance, the usual trade off. That, I can deal with. But the durability and QC issues are concerning.
Rigidity isn't a QC or necessarily a durability or strength issue from an engineering perspective. Take a look at the wing on a 777 next time you go flying! In fact often too much rigidity is a negative from the point of cracking and fatigue. Not to say the squeaking isn't annoying as all heck, but just to be clear it's not automatically a sign of any inferiority from an engineering view. In fact FPs are infamous for the squeaking going back years, and they don't suffer structural failure.
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Old 12-08-2019, 15:45   #84
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Rigidity isn't a QC or necessarily a durability or strength issue from an engineering perspective. Take a look at the wing on a 777 next time you go flying! In fact often too much rigidity is a negative from the point of cracking and fatigue. Not to say the squeaking isn't annoying as all heck, but just to be clear it's not automatically a sign of any inferiority from an engineering view. In fact FPs are infamous for the squeaking going back years, and they don't suffer structural failure.
It is if it's not designed to flex. Wings are designed to flex. I could be wrong but I think cats are designed to be rigid.
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Old 12-08-2019, 16:49   #85
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Not to beat a dead horse, but a Beneteau 51 is almost twice the base price of a Beneteau 41 so it seems reasonable, at least to me, that an Outremer 51 would be about twice the base price of the Seawind 1260. Size matters. Or at least that is what I've been told.
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Old 12-08-2019, 17:26   #86
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Oh for sure I have no doubt about base prices, but keep in mind that will be the same for Outremer.

To be honest the 1000xl is actually plenty big enough for me.

The safest boat is the one that can do its voyage the fastest, less time on the high seas = major reduction in catastrophic failure occuring.

The 1000xl is another 2000lb less displacement than the 1160, so even lighter once again, I think the XL when they put the carbon in dropped 500lb.

One thing I really like is they use outboards. No drag when under way, plus you can hose them down with fresh water when not in use.

They seem so manouverable? Thats why I think fuel is over rated. I dont buy a yacht to be a motor yacht like a huge Leopard or Lagoon, which is fine if thats what you are buying it for, if that were the case Id defenitely guy an Outrememer as they are also quick upwind.

ive seen the original 1000 for as low as $150k AU, its going to need outboard work I reckon. None the less still a good buy.

Im in no rush. I would like to see them used dagger boards though. I know the 1190 up use daggers, not sure about the 1160? definitely a big up help up wind.
Never owned one (Seawind 1000) but a good mate used to skipper one for an owner - ridiculously manoeuvrable with twin outboards, he could spin it around and around on the spot in a packed basin in a gusty breeze, no problem at all. Also reported having nosedived it into the back of a wave after surfing down the one before - so hard that it reversed back out of its nose-dive at high speed apparently. impressive (lucky) that there were no injuries on-board, but more impressive still that there was no damage sustained!
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Old 12-08-2019, 19:16   #87
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Never owned one (Seawind 1000) but a good mate used to skipper one for an owner - ridiculously manoeuvrable with twin outboards, he could spin it around and around on the spot in a packed basin in a gusty breeze, no problem at all. Also reported having nosedived it into the back of a wave after surfing down the one before - so hard that it reversed back out of its nose-dive at high speed apparently. impressive (lucky) that there were no injuries on-board, but more impressive still that there was no damage sustained!
Seawind cats are built like tanks. The outboards are well forward maybe 1/4 of the boat's length if the boat is a 1000 xl or has the one meter sugar scoop extension. When if first started driving mine I thought it was cheating how easy it was to spin it in place or pick up a ball. For a lot of cruisers the rock solid hull is a good trade off for the performance hit from added weight.
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Old 13-08-2019, 00:34   #88
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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SNIP

Outremer's used to be very bad cruising boats but man how they sailed. Now the more recent models the company had to face the reality a bit and their boats are more consumer oriented. I think I have even seen a husband and wife onboard of one. In the older models the wife would be in the bungalow on the adjacent beach.

SNIP
As an owner of a first generation Outremer designed by Danson, I don’t know why you made the statements that you made about these models. Yes, they sail well, but why do you say ‘very bad cruising boats’? By what standard?

First off they do sail well. Second, they’re a third of the price of a new model. Third, they have perfectly reasonable accommodations and amenities. My wife and I really love our boat and she wouldn’t be caught dead in a beachside bungalow if our boat is anywhere in the world - she says, and I quote ‘why should you have all the fun on our boat?’.

Fourth, and a counter to virtually every other modern cat and monohull, the first generation Outremers have a beautiful sheerline with an aluminium toe rail (really good for cruising whenever you need to go against a manky wharf in some far flung (or near) place). When Customs ask that we come alongside a commercial wharf we don’t worry about fender boards.

Yes, as with any performance cat you don’t get island berths nor large galleys nor fly bridges nor capacity for a dinghy with a 40hp motor. The new generation have a more spacious salon and slightly more counter space in the galley, but putting the freezer down in a hull is not a good feature. The throttles on the cabin top are exposed. They have sail drives. They don’t come standard with skegs to protect the props and rudders. Hmmm, not so much an upgrade for cruising.

I do dearly lust after the tillers - would cost me about 5 boat bucks (NZD discounted!) to do something similar.
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Old 13-08-2019, 05:05   #89
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Originally Posted by mowerandy View Post
Never owned one (Seawind 1000) but a good mate used to skipper one for an owner - ridiculously manoeuvrable with twin outboards, he could spin it around and around on the spot in a packed basin in a gusty breeze, no problem at all. Also reported having nosedived it into the back of a wave after surfing down the one before - so hard that it reversed back out of its nose-dive at high speed apparently. impressive (lucky) that there were no injuries on-board, but more impressive still that there was no damage sustained!
A seawind 1000 ( on starboard) and a Beneteau first 40.7 (on port) had a coming together recently st our yacht club. Bendy toy written off. Seawind no damage at all not even s mark that needed polishing out.
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Old 13-08-2019, 09:47   #90
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

At the beginning of this thread the OP tried to understand the reason why one cat costs twice as much as another, and used a new Seawind vs. Outremer as an example and asked for other design suggestions. The subsequent discussion evolved into somewhat randomly comparing various boats and their features.

Whatever happened to the concept of a prospective buyer creating an extremely detailed weighted requirements list and then seeing what best matches those needs? Presumably that list is based on personal experience or, if not, on inputs from various very knowledgeable sources.

With boats, the intended usage makes a world of difference, as something suitable for local or maybe coastal cruising is different than local racing which is yet different than comfortably living aboard and crossing oceans or (heavens!) round-the-world racing. Different strokes for different folks, and we need to recognize that personal preferences DO matter.

Since Seawinds have been discussed extensively, for extended cruising, for example, I submit that the section entitled "Mental Comfort and Visibility" from KatieKat FAQ is one of many considerations which should be looked at when evaluating competing designs.
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