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Old 13-08-2019, 11:45   #91
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Originally Posted by mowerandy View Post
Never owned one (Seawind 1000) but a good mate used to skipper one for an owner - ridiculously manoeuvrable with twin outboards, he could spin it around and around on the spot in a packed basin in a gusty breeze, no problem at all. Also reported having nosedived it into the back of a wave after surfing down the one before - so hard that it reversed back out of its nose-dive at high speed apparently. impressive (lucky) that there were no injuries on-board, but more impressive still that there was no damage sustained!
I owned that model for 12 years, including one 150 nm long offshore race in gnarly wind and wave conditions on a loose beat. Double reefed in 32 knots wind. We did stuff bow multiple times into some very large waves which shipped water onboard, over the hard top, and dumped into the back of the cockpit and drain. There was a momentary decelleration, but never even stop and certainly not reverse. It was a race so we were pushing the boat hard. One third of the fleet dropped out of probably 200 entries, including about 20 multihulls. We crossed the finish line right behind a Bahia 46, although they owed us time and we corrected out easily first in fleet. Not one i want to repeat as everyone onboard got seasick. The Bahia crew fared no better and immediately started washing barf off their stern when they got to the dock!
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Old 13-08-2019, 12:25   #92
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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I owned that model for 12 years, including one 150 nm long offshore race in gnarly wind and wave conditions on a loose beat. Double reefed in 32 knots wind. We did stuff bow multiple times into some very large waves which shipped water onboard, over the hard top, and dumped into the back of the cockpit and drain. There was a momentary decelleration, but never even stop and certainly not reverse. It was a race so we were pushing the boat hard. One third of the fleet dropped out of probably 200 entries, including about 20 multihulls. We crossed the finish line right behind a Bahia 46, although they owed us time and we corrected out easily first in fleet. Not one i want to repeat as everyone onboard got seasick. The Bahia crew fared no better and immediately started washing barf off their stern when they got to the dock!

That sounds like it was exhilarating, albeit uncomfortable. A great testament to the SW sailing ability and I assume that with only 2 reefs you were lifting the windward hull.

One feature our boat, and I believe all Outremers including new generation, is a small round chute in the galley for organic waste disposal. Itís on the corner of our galley counter adjacent to the door into the cockpit. Itís perfect for barfing - comfortable height and safely inside. No ungainly and dangerous trips to the rail or foul kneeling before the throne. We bought a chimney flue brush to clean it. In heavy seas we sometimes get a bit of a blowhole effect
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Old 13-08-2019, 13:49   #93
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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That sounds like it was exhilarating, albeit uncomfortable. A great testament to the SW sailing ability and I assume that with only 2 reefs you were lifting the windward hull.t
No hull lifting. A bit more heel than normal. I think we were making 13 knots, with peaks at 15's in gusts. Never out of control. But the mast was pumping more than i wanted. The jib sheet was bar tight. Unfortunately we didnt move the rigging to third reef before things got nasty. So just lived with the double reef.

When the race started, it was light wind, we were grilling on the bbq, eating potato salad, deviled eggs, etc. To this day, one of my crew still cant eat sausage again without the thought of that evening it all coming back up!
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Old 13-08-2019, 15:00   #94
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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No hull lifting. A bit more heel than normal. I think we were making 13 knots, with peaks at 15's in gusts. Never out of control. But the mast was pumping more than i wanted. The jib sheet was bar tight. Unfortunately we didnt move the rigging to third reef before things got nasty. So just lived with the double reef.

When the race started, it was light wind, we were grilling on the bbq, eating potato salad, deviled eggs, etc. To this day, one of my crew still cant eat sausage again without the thought of that evening it all coming back up!

One of the signs that weíre over powered to windward is the leeward shroud going loose. Unless weíre playing we put in another reef at that point. Our mast has two sets of diamonds and jumper struts so stays nicely in column and with its pre-bend doesnít pump, but it does lean over a bit. Do you keep your shrouds right or did the leeward one go loose?

Is your third reef usually not rigged? Do you keep it moused? For any passage, or race, you definitely should keep all your reefs rigged and ready for use.

And you were lifting your windward hull, albeit not all the way out of the water. Windward hull lifting plus leeward hull depressing equals heel.
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Old 13-08-2019, 15:25   #95
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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One of the signs that weíre over powered to windward is the leeward shroud going loose. Unless weíre playing we put in another reef at that point. Our mast has two sets of diamonds and jumper struts so stays nicely in column and with its pre-bend doesnít pump, but it does lean over a bit. Do you keep your shrouds right or did the leeward one go loose?

Is your third reef usually not rigged? Do you keep it moused? For any passage, or race, you definitely should keep all your reefs rigged and ready for use.

And you were lifting your windward hull, albeit not all the way out of the water. Windward hull lifting plus leeward hull depressing equals heel.
Leeward shroud is going to be loose, but not floppy, in very high wind. We had recently had all of the rigging replaced, and even returned for tune. If not loose some, then its too tight. As per Seawind, as well as rigging company. Seawind 1000 maat is a very stout double spreader rig. We ran 4 inches of prebend without issue. I dont think any SW 1000 mast has failed, to date.

In a breeze, leeward hull is always going to be depressed more than windward. In high wind and reach, maybe a couple of inches more. Its never an issue, and never close to flying a hull.

Seawind 1000 - and even my new Seawind 1160 Lite - had two reefing lines. One for reef 1 OR 3, and one for reef 2. When we crossed the Gulf in the 1160 last month - going from Ft Myers, Florida to Freeport, Texas - we had reef 2 and 3 rigged. We never went to reef 3. Reef 2 was fine even in high 20's knots.
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Old 13-08-2019, 16:03   #96
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Some 3000 Sq Ft houses are double the price of others. Same reasons.
Location, location, location.
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Old 13-08-2019, 16:16   #97
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Leeward shroud is going to be loose, but not floppy, in very high wind. We had recently had all of the rigging replaced, and even returned for tune. If not loose some, then its too tight. As per Seawind, as well as rigging company. Seawind 1000 maat is a very stout double spreader rig. We ran 4 inches of prebend without issue. I dont think any SW 1000 mast has failed, to date.

In a breeze, leeward hull is always going to be depressed more than windward. In high wind and reach, maybe a couple of inches more. Its never an issue, and never close to flying a hull.

Seawind 1000 - and even my new Seawind 1160 Lite - had two reefing lines. One for reef 1 OR 3, and one for reef 2. When we crossed the Gulf in the 1160 last month - going from Ft Myers, Florida to Freeport, Texas - we had reef 2 and 3 rigged. We never went to reef 3. Reef 2 was fine even in high 20's knots.

Interesting. Our reefing guide puts us at three reefs at 35 knots apparent (which upwind can happen in mid-20 knots of true wind speed) and offshore particularly we often put it in well before that.

Does the boom only have three sheaves for outhaul and two reefs? If so, thatís a sign to me that the boats arenít meant by the manufacture for ocean passages. Which doesnít of course mean they arenít used for ocean passaging. And you could fix your outhaul at the end of the boom and use its sheave and fair leads for another reef.

Or do you have four sheaves but only use three? If so, would that be because you have reef lines lead to the cockpit and not enough room for a third set of fair leads?
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Old 13-08-2019, 16:52   #98
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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It is if it's not designed to flex. Wings are designed to flex. I could be wrong but I think cats are designed to be rigid.
What would lead one to that conclusion? Rigidity is not an end into itself. It would be lunacy to try to design a multi-ton, 50' by 30' twin hulled vessel operating in waves in the ocean not to flex! Although that got me thinking about if anyone's ever tried to build a ferrocement cat? Obviously pretty much all production boats have gotten that design factor right given that in-sea breakups are not really a thing. I used to be in the rescue business, pretty much any production boat, mono or cat, will live through far worse seas than you or I can. You may be focusing on the wrong thing if that's a concern.
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Old 13-08-2019, 17:17   #99
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Does the boom only have three sheaves for outhaul and two reefs? If so, thatís a sign to me that the boats arenít meant by the manufacture for ocean passages. Which doesnít of course mean they arenít used for ocean passaging. And you could fix your outhaul at the end of the boom and use its sheave and fair leads for another reef.

Or do you have four sheaves but only use three? If so, would that be because you have reef lines lead to the cockpit and not enough room for a third set of fair leads?
Boats are stock setup with two continuous reefing lines. One for reef 2, and one with a long enough line for reef 3 or reef 1. Reef 1/3 blocks have snap shackles to switch positions easily. When we go offshore we rig reef 2 and 3. That said, i have never used reef 3. In June we crossed the Gulf of Mexico for four days in high winds and big waves. Gulf is not an ocean, but boat did just fine.

Remember the original designs were for offshore waters of Austrailia, and probably the largest fleets of Seawinds still sailing there. To me, that says more about capability than counting sheaves on the boom. I could easily add blocks and line, but the current system works fine. The continuous reef line and powered winch make it easy to reef, and unreef, even singlehanding the boat. All from cockpit.
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Old 14-08-2019, 00:29   #100
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Horses for courses. That is much like asking why get a Land Rover when a Jetta will get you around as well. No disparagement, I've owned several Jettas. I just would not take one off-road.
At some point we plan to drive the PanAmerican Highway....as such I follow a number of blogs.

Several are people with custom unimogs. Unimogs are giant incredible off road vehicles but very expensive.

Funny thing is one couple in a 10yr old Toyota Corolla shows up in all the same places.

No disparagement against Unimogs, I would love to have one...but reality is they are mostly about ego.
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Old 14-08-2019, 02:15   #101
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

On our Lagoon there are 3 reefing lines, reef one and 2 are automatic, means the a single line downhauls the sail at the mast and at the stern of the main sail to the boom, reef 3 line only downhauls at the stern, while there is a hook at the boom to fix the sail manually, what makes it hard and dangerous to reef in bad weather to reef 3, you have to go to the mast, bring the sail down and attach the hook.

You can rig a second line to the hook to bring the sail down from the helm and then only go forward to attach the hook, or fix the downhauler to a cleet without attaching the hook.
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