Some Cats are double the price of others ?

[Zzmeyer]

The Amel 50 is twice as expensive as the Beneteau Sense 50. Twice as good? Perhaps.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But that doesn't necessarily mean it's better, higher skilled or more conscientious.

Again, nowhere did I bring up a quality discrepancy.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Seawind used to be built in Australia with some of the highest wages in the world.
Prices then were pretty much the same for a Seawind as they are now.
No real savings have been passed on to the customer.

Their previous business/pricing model didn't work, they went tits up, got bought out, lowered labor costs by moving to Vietnam, keep same pricing, brand gets to survive another day. Savings that aren't passed to customers today are profits they weren't making before in Oz.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

I also think Seawind Austraulia went bankrupt. Either way, they are now owned by Corsair Marine International, or certainly that is the nameplate on my 2019 1160 Lite.

SNIP

I thought Seawind went into receivership. In any case this is a blurb from the Seawind Group web site; which says the Seawind Group owns Corsair Marine International. I probably spent too much time studying in law school to not notice this.

"In October 2010 Seawind acquired Corsair Marine, the world’s foremost trailer trimaran manufacturer who has built over 1,600 boats during their 25 year history. Having spent 20 years manufacturing in North America, Corsair Marine relocated their management and manufacturing facility to Vietnam. For over 6 years Corsair have been building high performance, light weight composite boats built from fibreglass and carbon, using the latest technology including resin infusion and vacuum bagging. Seawind have relocated the production of all three Seawind models to the Corsair factory, along with their own team of shipwrights, high skilled tradesmen and management to oversee the manufacturing and to also cooperatively develop the manufacturing techniques of Seawind and Corsair.
The Seawind Group now employ over 200 staff stretching over two continents with more than 20 agents internationally and exporting to all parts of the globe. With six production catamarans and five production models and the production capabilities, the Seawind Group are placed as the fourth largest multihull manufacturer in the world."

The wiki site also says the same thing about Corsair International.

"Since October 2010, the company belongs to the Australian boat builder Seawind Catamarans. The production facility is located in Vietnam. "

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Seawind used to be built in Australia with some of the highest wages in the world.
Prices then were pretty much the same for a Seawind as they are now.
No real savings have been passed on to the customer.

A Coke use to cost a nickel when I was a kid. Comparing prices from ten years ago to todays prices ignores inflation. Not to mention todays Seawind cats are more high tec than the older ones.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by tomfl

A Coke use to cost a nickel when I was a kid. Comparing prices from ten years ago to todays prices ignores inflation. Not to mention todays Seawind cats are more high tec than the older ones.

Not to mention their wages and overheads are a pittance of what they once were.

Inflation would be lucky to be 2% over the last 10 years since the gfc

[44'cruisingcat]

If Seawind hadn't moved production to Vietnam, it's highly probable they wouldn't be building boats today.

[xrudi]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I'm not always sure you get what you pay for? We all have opinions of course, but few of us have thoroughly crawled through many of the boats we have opinions of let alone sailed them, most of us are just regurgitating internet knowledge, I'm not saying you are.

I'm a German classified boat builder and shipbuilding engineer. It means I went through 3.5 years of apprenticeship training, starting at the age of 14years . Then I had o get the qualification to enter university (4 years). After this I entered university for 7 years to become a shipbuilding engineer. They gave me a year at the University of Michigan as an exchange student.

Now I'm retired after working for FAO/UNDP, running ship and boatyards world wide (also in my own boat yard) and working as surveyor of yachts and ships. I think I have learned a little about the marine business, There is a lot to learn more.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by xrudi

I'm a German classified boat builder and shipbuilding engineer. It means I went through 3.5 years of apprenticeship training, starting at the age of 14years . Then I had o get the qualification to enter university (4 years). After this I entered university for 7 years to become a shipbuilding engineer. They gave me a year at the University of Michigan as an exchange student.

Now I'm retired after working for FAO/UNDP, running ship and boatyards world wide (also in my own boat yard) and working as surveyor of yachts and ships. I think I have learned a little about the marine business, There is a lot to learn more.

Hi Rudi,

Great career indeed, hope you find finally some time to enjoy sailing on one of the vessels you dessigned and built during your work life, that would be awesome!

[xrudi]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

If Seawind hadn't moved production to Vietnam, it's highly probable they wouldn't be building boats today.

I think you are right. The quality depend on the management system and supervision. I build ships in Indonesia which had a equal or better quality then in Germany or Sweden.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by xrudi

The quality depend on the management system and supervision. I build ships in Indonesia which had a equal or better quality then in Germany or Sweden.

Agreed. Since Seawind moved to Vietnam their boats have improved in several areas.

They're now resin infused, so lighter and stronger.

A very visible difference is in the stainless steel work, pulpits, railings etc. The quality of the welding is really excellent, so good they don't even look like welds, it's as if the stainless flowed into those shapes.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I thought Seawind went into receivership. In any case this is a blurb from the Seawind Group web site; which says the Seawind Group owns Corsair Marine International. I probably spent too much time studying in law school to not notice this.

"In October 2010 Seawind acquired Corsair Marine, the world’s foremost trailer trimaran manufacturer who has built over 1,600 boats during their 25 year history. Having spent 20 years manufacturing in North America, Corsair Marine relocated their management and manufacturing facility to Vietnam. For over 6 years Corsair have been building high performance, light weight composite boats built from fibreglass and carbon, using the latest technology including resin infusion and vacuum bagging. Seawind have relocated the production of all three Seawind models to the Corsair factory, along with their own team of shipwrights, high skilled tradesmen and management to oversee the manufacturing and to also cooperatively develop the manufacturing techniques of Seawind and Corsair.
The Seawind Group now employ over 200 staff stretching over two continents with more than 20 agents internationally and exporting to all parts of the globe. With six production catamarans and five production models and the production capabilities, the Seawind Group are placed as the fourth largest multihull manufacturer in the world."

The wiki site also says the same thing about Corsair International.

"Since October 2010, the company belongs to the Australian boat builder Seawind Catamarans. The production facility is located in Vietnam. "

Hi Tom, in the "legal" world, I obviously got it backwards. However in the production world, my 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite came with a Builders Certification and First Title of Transfer listing Corsair Marine International, as well as the hull ID is a CSR. So I guess legally that Seawind is parent company, but all of their boats are currently being made by Corsair Marine International. It's one production facility, but layup and construction of the Seawind and Corsair models are in separate areas. We toured the facility in September. Was really cool being able to see the various stages of build from hull and deck layup thru equipment installation and finish. As our boat was being built we also got periodic updates with pictures, and the customer service rep was quick to answer questions along the process.

Waiting for the ship to bring our boat from Vietnam to Miami, now that was painful!

[barnakiel]

Also. Sweden known for Volvo, Hasselblad and Electrolux (and Spotify and Assa Abloy). Vietnam known for nice smiling people in straw hats eating rice.


Where are Outremers built then?


b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

The Amel 50 is twice as expensive as the Beneteau Sense 50. Twice as good? Perhaps.

Better than bene? YES.


2 x better? Define "2x" ;-)


It is clearly better - no keels falling off, no creaking sounds in the seaway, no rudders bent and leaking, etc.


Also better interior materials, etc.


Bene is built to charter standards Amel is built to owner's standards.


Amels brings in the Oyster factor, Bene gives you a Bava factor.


Whether the differences are worth anything to the buyer depends on each buyer's priorities, likes and dislikes. And since they are still in the business at "2x" the price, it is a proof it is the case (2x better).


You and me can disagree, the owners have voted with their wallets.


b.

[Zzmeyer]

Don't disagree at all. Amel is clearly the better boat and owners vote with their wallet. You are also quite correct that many have concluded it is worth twice as much (and many have either had to pass on the higher price or determined they aren't). I find the issue being in comparing two boats wildly different in price, but solely based on length. I'd jump on the Amel, and I suspect virtually everyone else would, if the price were the same. I've always wondered how much of the price difference in boats is due to one being "better" and the efficiencies of volume manufacturing. A really good thread on the Amel commissioning demonstrated to me that most of the third party systems (engine, generator, watermaker, air conditioner, sail handling equipment) were the same as on my boat. I think to survive at 2x price, monohull or multi hull one needs to demonstrate quality or exclusivity. Clearly, Amel has.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Also. Sweden known for Volvo, Hasselblad and Electrolux (and Spotify and Assa Abloy). Vietnam known for nice smiling people in straw hats eating rice.


Where are Outremers built then?


b.

In the land of wine and cheese!