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Old 08-08-2019, 11:22   #31
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Form what it is worth. I own a Dolphin 460. Bought her new in 2007 and could not be happier. I sailed her across the Atlantic from Brazil to Italy and have been cruising in the Med ever since. Love this boat for going to weather and as a second home for eight months of the year. Cruisers come by all the time to tell me that Finalmente is one of the nicest looking cats they have ever seen. She looks fast and is fast, but has everything a well equipped apt has. Just saying.
I love those. Have worked on one, beautiful design, clean lines, very understated.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:23   #32
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Yes, living standards are different between countries but to say that a French built boat is going to be head and shoulders above one built in Argentina or Vietnam is a gross overestimation.
Would you bet your live on it.?
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:25   #33
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Would you bet your live on it.?
Yes. I have been to the yards.

Edit: if you're spending a $1M or near that on a boat without visiting the yard, I consider it a dicey proposition. A boat is not a car, this is not a decision to take lightly.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:22   #34
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Doesn't equate to a better boat. I have enough that I have found wrong with brand new Lagoons (even the Seventy7), and FPs that I have been asked to not speak up on because "those are exceptions to the expected quality of our brand". If you've been to a boat show from a prospective owner standpoint, you know these words mean bad things.

I would go on, but look at it like this, I lived in the US and Canada, not everything made in these two countries with their skilled labour and modern tech available to superpowers, ends up a useful or necessarily high end product. Heck, there are maple wood products made in Canada that I would love to ask the manufacturer what they were thinking.

Yes, living standards are different between countries but to say that a French built boat is going to be head and shoulders above one built in Argentina or Vietnam is a gross overestimation.

Who said anything about better, worse, heads or shoulders? I didn't.

So the labor cost differential between France and Vietnam has no bearing in the price difference between Outremer and Seawind, as asked by the OP?
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:25   #35
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Who said anything about better, worse, heads or shoulders? I didn't.

So the labor cost differential between France and Vietnam has no bearing in the price difference between Outremer and Seawind, as asked by the OP?
Not what I said but okay, you're allowed to believe whatever you want.

Edit: Didn't accuse you either, rather added to it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 14:46   #36
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

Yes, two different points being discussed here.

Clearly the labour cost differential between France and Vietnam will absolutely have a bearing on the price difference between Outremer and Seawind.

And let's note that there are reasons that Seawind moved production to Vietnam, and also reasons that Outremer (and others) got swallowed up by the Grand Large group.

It's tough to make money building boats, and many manufacturers end up going broke.

Either way, who builds a better boat, or just the question of acceptable quality in general, is entirely separate.
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Old 08-08-2019, 15:17   #37
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Would you bet your live on it.?
Yes. Yes I would.
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Old 08-08-2019, 15:19   #38
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Yes, two different points being discussed here.

Clearly the labour cost differential between France and Vietnam will absolutely have a bearing on the price difference between Outremer and Seawind.

And let's note that there are reasons that Seawind moved production to Vietnam, and also reasons that Outremer (and others) got swallowed up by the Grand Large group.

It's tough to make money building boats, and many manufacturers end up going broke.

Either way, who builds a better boat, or just the question of acceptable quality in general, is entirely separate.
Absolute truth! Fully agree.
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Old 08-08-2019, 16:08   #39
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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I'm not always sure you get what you pay for? We all have opinions of course, but few of us have thoroughly crawled through many of the boats we have opinions of let alone sailed them, most of us are just regurgitating internet knowledge, I'm not saying you are.

Hi,



Yes, you are right. You caught me red handed and in the act ;-) I admit, I have not sailed a Seawind (but I was onboard, if this counts for anything).



Give or take the posh factor (Rolex and Casio are the same thing anyway), we get what we pay for.



However, neither Outremer nor Seawind are posh boats.


It is often believed that HR or Oyster are. No they are not.


Huisman's, Hoek's yes.



Outremer and Seawind are the same thing, none is posh, thus their prices reflect mostly technology - which indirectly affects quality and performance.


Outremer's used to be very bad cruising boats but man how they sailed. Now the more recent models the company had to face the reality a bit and their boats are more consumer oriented. I think I have even seen a husband and wife onboard of one. In the older models the wife would be in the bungalow on the adjacent beach.


(Yes, I spend that much time in French islands, virtually as much as we can afford).



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Old 08-08-2019, 16:10   #40
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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French skilled labor ~300/day plus benefits?
Vietnam closer to 30/day
First world labour is far more expensive. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's better, higher skilled or more conscientious.

In fact the opposite may be true. In third world countries good jobs are hard to find, and there's often no welfare safety net. So workers are far more likely to do their best.
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Old 08-08-2019, 16:18   #41
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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So the labor cost differential between France and Vietnam has no bearing in the price difference between Outremer and Seawind, as asked by the OP?

Seawind used to be built in Australia with some of the highest wages in the world.
Prices then were pretty much the same for a Seawind as they are now.
No real savings have been passed on to the customer.
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Old 08-08-2019, 16:34   #42
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

A very rude person told me that the difference is that in the more expensive one, they include a container down below containing a cyanide pill. When the cat turns turtle, and stays over ( He said check your elementary physics book), you can take the pill rather than wait to drown. Of course, I told him he was full of "hooey".
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Old 08-08-2019, 16:50   #43
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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A very rude person told me that the difference is that in the more expensive one, they include a container down below containing a cyanide pill. When the cat turns turtle, and stays over ( He said check your elementary physics book), you can take the pill rather than wait to drown. Of course, I told him he was full of "hooey".


That rude person sounds like an absolute imbecile, or maybe just entirely uneducated.
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Old 08-08-2019, 16:56   #44
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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A very rude person told me that the difference is that in the more expensive one, they include a container down below containing a cyanide pill. When the cat turns turtle, and stays over ( He said check your elementary physics book), you can take the pill rather than wait to drown. Of course, I told him he was full of "hooey".
Don't you get bored posting the same garbage over and over? You sound jealous, or maybe depressed. Is all that lead dragging you down?
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Old 08-08-2019, 17:03   #45
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Re: Some Cats are double the price of others ?

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Seawind used to be built in Australia with some of the highest wages in the world.

Prices then were pretty much the same for a Seawind as they are now.

No real savings have been passed on to the customer.
I also think Seawind Austraulia went bankrupt. Either way, they are now owned by Corsair Marine International, or certainly that is the nameplate on my 2019 1160 Lite. I toured the Vietnam factory in September. Was very impressed by the workmanship and improvements vs earlier models. The Vietnam factory uses resin infused layup. Weights have come down as a result. As an example, my front crossbeam is a carbon reinforced box beam (weighs less in bow, and bow end attachment to hulls yields less torsional twist.) All of the equipment is Lewmar, Mastervolt bep, dometic, etc. We owned a Seawind 1000 for 12 years. Super happy with it, and last year decided to upsize to an 1160 Lite. Had a new one built, delivered to Miami in February, them direct to Bahamas for three months, then back across Gulf of Mexico to home in Texas. The boat is everything we hoped for. Its relatively fast (we put oversized carbon sails on it, that helped), but it's not a Gunboat. I could have gotten a lot more equipped boat for the money with some other high-production models (we looked at both miami and Annapolis shows) but i know neither of those sail as well as a Seawind. Or I could have spent a bit more and got an 1190 with boards, but we opted for simplicity. (We still tack at about 90 deg, and upwind we sail at 30-32 deg AWA at best VMG. So not too bad.)

We have 800 watts solar, dual 25 hp Yamahas, and no permanent generator. A Honda 2200 is enough to run our DCU18 air con, but overall at anchor the air flow is great. We had a few crossings in really crappy conditions, and she performed well. Electric winch and single line reefing meant its all easy to do single handed.

We are happy with ours, love the way she sails, the layout for cruising, and even the galley down. All boats are a compromise, but this one works well for us.
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